Creationism in schools.

[Cail]

Sorry folks, there is no fossil record linking man to apes, much less to single-celled life. Even given the research into the Big Bang, we have created a theory based upon observation and measurements. Micro-evolution has been proven, and I don't deny that. Macro-evolution has not (tho I will say that I tend towards God creating the Big Bang and God setting life into motion and guiding our evolution).

[Cybrweez]

I am utterly unable to fathom how christianity has lasted this long; but then again, people need something to keep them from facing the truth, don't they?

I feel the same way when people deny the claims of the Bible. They'll put their trust in anything else (like science), in order to keep from facing the truth.

[lurch]

..In Reply..It appears to me that folks want proofs,,use the criteria of " proof" for the teaching of Theories. Above posts ask for Proof. Theories do not require Proof. There is a step in the process of theory becoming Law that is labeled Proof. There are mathmatical Proofsfor an example.
..As noted above,,Theories come about from many observations and then the conclusion..evidence. Science requires tangible evidence,,stuff of the real world..stuff of the 3-d world we exist in. This is the world we(society) have decided to educate the children about. This is the ability to cure diseases, go to the far reaches of our solar system..and the far reaches of the interior of the atom.
..Now..if you choose not to merit this world,,this 3 dimensional reality we exist in..and demand the teaching of otherlands..other realities,,where there is no limits and structures as to what one believes and thus what should be taught,,good luck..Or..is it really ,,i want my God ,,my religion,,my belief system to be taught..not any that i can't handle or is contrary to my beliefs...Again..sunday school is for the teaching of whichever religous tenets the church desires..Public schools are for the teaching and preparing the children for the 3d reality we live in. Theories are theories, not Laws, yet they still meet a minimum requirement of being the result of manifestations of the 3d world we exist in. There is a process that allows and encourages challenges and corrections. From my own experiences,,i have never seen that process in use or being taught in sunday school.
...Creationism is an end. Its non-negotiable..The scientific process,,fromTheory to Law..is open ended,,forever expanding. Now this does relate directly to SRD. If you believe you have the final answer,,achieved a perfect/pure understanding..then you no longer grow..your understanding stops expanding because you believe you have found the final answer..you are at an end. Metaphorically,,you are dead.
creationism doesn't meet the minimum requirements of becoming Theory in this 3d reality. if we decide to start teachin religion in tax payer supported public schools..then i see its time for me to put on the robe and collar,,start up a little church..and get my religion spred thru-out the public school system..after all..if you decide to teach one religion,,then you have to teach all of them..........Its time to pull ones head out of the dark ages and join the rest of humanity in this modern 3-d reality...MEL

[I'm Murrin]

there is no fossil record linking man to apes

How so? There have been many fossils found of species similar to man but not, or close to apes but different; and such species chronologically ordered that have seemingly shown a progression towards humanity. How does this not link man to apes? Evolution is accepted due to the almost overwhelming abundance of evidence for such progression in such fossil records. Oh, and even if evolution has not been directly observed, things like speciation (diversion of one species into two or more distinct species) have been, lending more evidence to the process of descent with modification.

I am utterly unable to fathom how christianity has lasted this long; but then again, people need something to keep them from facing the truth, don't they?

I feel the same way when people deny the claims of the Bible. They'll put their trust in anything else (like science), in order to keep from facing the truth.

Just to elaborate (to Fist and Faith, also): I exaggerate my views on topics such as this in order to make a stronger point sometimes. I do it without thinking. I understand why people choose to believe. I don't think it's running away. But it's the more comfortable path; a way without fear of death. Accept an unprovable theory, and live life comfortable in the knowledge that You will go on forever. I have placed a finite limit on my existence, and that can be difficult to live with.

'In anything else, in order to keep from facing the truth'? Please. Don't give me that crap. I believe what makes most sense to me, and that's my choice. It's nothing to do with denial. I simply find religion too fantastic to be credible.

[Cail]

Murrin, there is no direct link (I'm assuming you've heard of "the missing link") between ape and man.

Lurch, you choose not to see the proof of God, you choose not to have faith in Him. That's OK, but again I'll point out that the Christians here are nowhere near as angry, defensive, and demeaning towards your beliefs as you are to ours. Rather that put us down, why not tell us what you believe and why? No one is going to tear you down for it.

[Nathan]

Murrin, there is no direct link (I'm assuming you've heard of "the missing link") between ape and man.

You're willing to disregard the theory of evolution because of one missing link, but you'll accept creationism despite an entire missing chain?

Lurch, you choose not to see the proof of God

Again, I ask that evidence be supplied rather than just a continued assertion that this evidence exists.

[Cail]

Murrin, there is no direct link (I'm assuming you've heard of "the missing link") between ape and man.

You're willing to disregard the theory of evolution because of one missing link, but you'll accept creationism despite an entire missing chain?

I never said I don't believe in evolution (I think I said I believe that the Big Bang and evolution and Creationism all come into play). What I'm saying is that evolution is a theory, and there is no proof of it on a macro level.

Lurch, you choose not to see the proof of God

Again, I ask that evidence be supplied rather than just a continued assertion that this evidence exists.

Nathan, I can't make you see it. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen India, but I'm pretty sure it's there.

[Cybrweez]

But it's the more comfortable path; a way without fear of death. Accept an unprovable theory, and live life comfortable in the knowledge that You will go on forever. I have placed a finite limit on my existence, and that can be difficult to live with.

'In anything else, in order to keep from facing the truth'? Please. Don't give me that crap. I believe what makes most sense to me, and that's my choice. It's nothing to do with denial. I simply find religion too fantastic to be credible.

Murrin, my point is that you are in the same boat. Your theory that there is no God is unprovable. I would contend that you don't want to be held to any standard, especially a God that says what you should and shouldn't be like, so let's pretend He doesn't exist. I don't believe in God b/c I want to live for infinity, I believe in God b/c of my life experiences. I believe in a God that holds you accountable, and that can be hard to live with.

[Nathan]

Lurch, you choose not to see the proof of God

Again, I ask that evidence be supplied rather than just a continued assertion that this evidence exists.

Nathan, I can't make you see it. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen India, but I'm pretty sure it's there.

I'm well aware that just because I can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But I don't see God, I see no effects of God, and I see no evidence of God.
I'm sure you've seen photographic proof that India exists, you've seen people that have lived in India, talked to them, heard the language. I could find pictures myself and show them to you. India has affected you.

Are you trying to say that your evidence of God is something along the lines of "The very fact that we even exist proves that God created us..." or "The love of God is obvious if you just look around you..."?

[lurch]

..Concerning " not seeing" and "what do I believe in"..Nice change of subject..and ,,again,,making it a personal thing,,when the issue is has to do with public matters..
...yet,,I'll forgo the science rap to answer the questions and make comment..since the opening has been created...
...Not seeing. How very persumptive of you,,have you considered the thought of Having Seen,,and MOVED ON? Enjoyed the view,,having a great time , vishnu were here,,,and all that...but the tour bus of life and all that, is moving on to the next stop,,gotta go!...I was there at a point of my life Cail. Where the fact things existed struck me as beautiful and product of God's doing.,,the overwhelming wonderfulness of it all..etc, etc anchored my perspective..But,,like i believe said by F&F in another thread,,that is only one small part of the whole picture..I didn't stop there, plant my flag and declare it Terra Lurch in the name of MEL. That answers the the other question of what do I believe in..
...Spirituallity..deals in the realm beyond the tangible. I am still exploring that realm..so ..to stop and say..this is what I believe in,,is missing the point..I believe in the constant search,,because it rewards dailey..Ask the mirror on the wall,,whats it all for,,,understanding, nothing more...perhaps, the modern God is becoming,,or evolving to " Knowledge"..I. T. may be the heralding angel,,the lap top, desk top,,etc, the church,,etc. The point is ,,everyday i experience and learn , so in recognizing that,,i can't say at any point,,this is what God is..I can't even say God,,is the correct label or context of referrence..and to do so label,,is arrogant on my part.
...Now,,that also means..that i don't believe relgion is the sole owner of morals and Ethics.
...when in the realm of spirituality..one always ends up with beliefs..When I wake in the morning, i believe i'm truelly fortunate..but i don't assign that belief to a identified diety. I'm too busy and humbled. ...I won't label it until the appropriate time..which should be when i am on my death bed.
Until then..i'm in the process...-( ..hint..actions speak louder than words)
...Alls i am saying is..when you think you have all the answers,,then,,you are in trouble...
...Creationism ,,the literal teaching of...represents a non changeable absolute. The only thing that is constant, is change....MEL

[duchess of malfi]

To change the subject just a bit:

Why do I only hear of this being an issue here in America?

Is it an educational issue in other advanced, industrialized countries, and I just don't hear about it??

[variol son]

Well, in NZ, we don't have a "Bible Belt" as such, so there aren't so many people campaigning for creationism in schools. Also, the Church in NZ has, until recently, remained aloof from political involvement.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Sheol]

duchess: I don't know why we don't hear about other countries having problems with this. But I bet in every country where religion is freely practiced they are makeing as big a deal of it as we are. And I would also bet that they are over there saying, "Why don't I hear about other countries having this problem?"

[Cail]

.....Not seeing. How very persumptive of you,,have you considered the thought of Having Seen,,and MOVED ON?

...Creationism is an end. Its non-negotiable..The scientific process,,fromTheory to Law..is open ended,,forever expanding. Now this does relate directly to SRD. If you believe you have the final answer,,achieved a perfect/pure understanding..then you no longer grow..your understanding stops expanding because you believe you have found the final answer..you are at an end. Metaphorically,,you are dead.

Right, and the second quote wasn't presumptive on your part at all.

Hey, like I said, believe what you want. I find it interesting that at one point you were religious (Christian I'm assuming) and now you're not. If you're up to it, go back over to the "Proof of God" thread and explain how/why that happened. I'm curious.

I think we are agreed on Creationism not being taught in public schools. I believe it's at least as valid as anything else being taught, but it is a religious explaination, and as such, doesn't belong in our secular, tax-dollar-funded public schools.

Nathan, your answer is in the "Proof of God" thread.

[variol son]

duchess: I don't know why we don't hear about other countries having problems with this. But I bet in every country where religion is freely practiced they are makeing as big a deal of it as we are. And I would also bet that they are over there saying, "Why don't I hear about other countries having this problem?"

Um, don't know about places such as Australia, Canada or the UK, but in New Zealand none of that is the case. Please don't take this the wrong way but we just look at the big deal being made over the issue in the US and wonder what the big deal is.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[lurch]

..on your first note,,..what part of Creationism is negotiable?..maybe it wasn't 7 days..?....maybe it wasn't ( your) God..?
...So you claim no personal attacks...but your 2 note above is a statement based on your comprehension ..then youhold it up for derision..nice try..
..thats what i get for giving you an inch,,,I now have serious doubts of your ability to comprehend..those are MY doubts. ..
...See,,thats it in a nutschell..if it ain't easy and handed to you already predigested...already of your prejudice...then it has to be ' explained" to you. I am not Rush Lumbaugh..I am not going to do the thinking for you..you have to go out and explore( oh my!) and figure it out for your self....
...I am a Christian, I am a Jew, I am a Moslem. I am a Hindu, I am a Budhist. I am a Shingoist. I am earth. I am i am sky. I am water. I am dry. I am heat. I am cold. I am Sun. I am Moon. I am free, I am shackled. I am everything you know. I am everything you will never know. I am sharp. I am dull. I am pain. I am balm. I am hell. I am the Heavens. I am the scream. I am the laugh. I am the warhoodle of the Chiggerysnag. I am the blank page. I am the oar. I am the lake. I am real. I am fake. I am Black and White. I am Color. I am motion. I am Still.I am a moat of dust. I am The Universe.I am nothing. I ain't yet everything. And I ain't dead. ...I am alive...MEL

[Cail]

..on your first note,,..what part of Creationism is negotiable?..maybe it wasn't 7 days..?....maybe it wasn't ( your) God..?
...So you claim no personal attacks...but your 2 note above is a statement based on your comprehension ..then youhold it up for derision..nice try..
..thats what i get for giving you an inch,,,I now have serious doubts of your ability to comprehend..those are MY doubts. ..
...See,,thats it in a nutschell..if it ain't easy and handed to you already predigested...already of your prejudice...then it has to be ' explained" to you. I am not Rush Lumbaugh..I am not going to do the thinking for you..you have to go out and explore( oh my!) and figure it out for your self....

Lurch, with all due respect, you are not capable of thinking for me, nor do I want you to try. I have held nothing up to derision, I have not attacked you (until now). I asked you a simple, honest question about your beliefs, and you've chosen to continue on in the same vein.

It is my opinion that you'd rather sling insults than have an honest, civil discussion. Since I feel you have nothing to add, I won't be responding to your bait anymore.

[lurch]

..What was that Woody Allen short story..The Chess Game..?..I think some Art was just created( in keeping with the thread)..Thanks Cail ,for being part of it....Or...Your assumptions are wrong,,I know what i wrote and therefore its fair to say that how you perceived is wrong, and then you ask for an explanation on how it is that I am wrong..The haughtyness continued..,I don't require your direction or approval to believe what i want.You continue to demonstrate my very points..Thanks for being part of this Creation..MEL

[Sheol]

variol son wrote:
Sheol wrote:
duchess: I don't know why we don't hear about other countries having problems with this. But I bet in every country where religion is freely practiced they are makeing as big a deal of it as we are. And I would also bet that they are over there saying, "Why don't I hear about other countries having this problem?"


Um, don't know about places such as Australia, Canada or the UK, but in New Zealand none of that is the case. Please don't take this the wrong way but we just look at the big deal being made over the issue in the US and wonder what the big deal is.

Sum sui generis
Vs


I understand where you are comeing from. But it is part of the American way to make a bigger deal about things than we should. That and blow things up, it's all tied together in some wierd way. It is all fun none the less, fun but scary.

[variol son]

That's why I don't take part in many of the discussions here, or in the Think Tank. The passion with which Americans seem to approach every issue kinda freaks me out.

Sum sui generis
Vs