AN OPEN LETTER TO JAY - About Profanities!

[Worm of Despite]

Ok ok, let's all be cool here.

Yeah, as we've said every now and then, personally, I like to keep the Watch a "family-friendly" site. Some Watchers have mentioned that they let their children come here, and as a result, I'd prefer the keep the language PG or PG-13.

Thanks for the clarification on that, Jay.

[kevinswatch]

ALL it takes is for one family-minded person to state 'I am offended by rape and torture, could we please stop talking about it in threads as I think KW is a family board.

Come on, Loremaster. That's a bit of an extreme example. Do you really think we would listen to someone like that?

But if someone comes forward with a reasonable complaint about the use of a word, is it wrong to take it into concideration?-jay

[Worm of Despite]

I'd like to publicly apologize, Loremaster, if I made you angry. I got a bit heated, myself. I don't know why I was being so adamant about this profanity thing; ironically, I cuss a good deal in real life. Strange. Oh well, must've been bored.

[Loredoctor]

ALL it takes is for one family-minded person to state 'I am offended by rape and torture, could we please stop talking about it in threads as I think KW is a family board.

Come on, Loremaster. That's a bit of an extreme example. Do you really think we would listen to someone like that?

But if someone comes forward with a reasonable complaint about the use of a word, is it wrong to take it into concideration?-jay

Yes it is an extreme example, but I can honestly see it happening. No, I wouldn't take it seriously either. But that's my point.
Anyway, good points Jay and I am backing off.

[Loredoctor]

I'd like to publicly apologize, Loremaster, if I made you angry. I got a bit heated, myself. I don't know why I was being so adamant about this profanity thing; ironically, I cuss a good deal in real life. Strange. Oh well, must've been bored.

Apology accepted, though I was never offended I apologise to everyone, esp Furls.

[I'm Murrin]

This is confusing me. I could swear I've seen similar language used on these boards infrequently in the past, and on no occasion has anyone complained about it, that I know of. Why has it suddenly been censored?
Then again, I don't particularly object to the deletion of two words from one single post. The matter is trivial, IMO.

[Creator]

*sigh* I was being sarcastic, Foul. I think it is ridiculous that one can accept SRD's use of the words, love his work, yet get offended by it's use at KW.

I wouldn't exactly agree with that. There's stuff in the GAP, I think we would all find offensive in general posts!

Edit - but I'm glad everyone's chilled out!!

[hierachy]

OK, here's the solution:

Read my web log.

That's it... after you have done that, everything here will magically be transformed into entirely inoffensive stuff.

[danlo]

I'm tempted to start a no holds barred ezboard for Watch and Hangar members, complete with dating services. Not only will it spead viruses but, since I'm broke, it'll be guaranteed to have popups (Oh dang! As opposed to d--m...there's only 825,000 boards like that out there already ) I say we censor this highly offensive emoticon here first>

[Furls Fire]

I'd like to publicly apologize, Loremaster, if I made you angry. I got a bit heated, myself. I don't know why I was being so adamant about this profanity thing; ironically, I cuss a good deal in real life. Strange. Oh well, must've been bored.

Apology accepted, though I was never offended I apologise to everyone, esp Furls.

No need to apologize to me, Mike. Nothing you said offended me in any way.

You know everyone, when this all began KW was relatively small. When I joined over a year ago, it only had maybe 200 members and maybe only 35 of those were active. Back then, alot of things were just along the vein of..."it goes without saying." Profanity wasn't an issue because it just wasn't done, and when it was it was only occasionally and easily overlooked.

Now, we have over 1200 memebers here, and growing everyday. Maybe we should start clearly defining what is and isn't acceptable. GD and JC are very offensive to me, but I feel that I am in the minority on that one, and when I've seen them here, I just avert my eyes and move along. Maybe a Mod meeting of some sort should take place so we can discuss what exactly should and shouldn't be allowed, keeping with the assumption that the Watch is a PG-13 site. Personally, I would hate to see it evolve into a place where flaming runs rampant and obscenities fly unchecked as with some other forums....

[[Syl]]

First off, I support the mods in whatever changes they feel necessary, and I think whining to Jay like this is pathetic. Might as well add "crybaby" to the banned list, because I think I'll be using it often.

Do what you will, I will still say f*** and s*** (asterisks included) where I think it is appropriate. I still will write any posts that I would have before. If I get banned for it, then so be it. I still say this "family board" thing is only thrown out when newbies haven't caught on to the flow yet. So, IMO, it would be a lot better to politely suggest someone change the direction of their posts rather than enforcing some rigid, arbitrary guideline.

There are no bad words, only bad thoughts.

[wayfriend]

One vote for niceness.

I, for one, find that I am quite capable of expressing myself using mild language. In fact, when I post, I quite enjoy choosing the most concise and correct way to say what I am feeling. This is a literary discussion board, and so I take some pride in being literate.

In polite society, you don't use profanity. Among dear friends or family in a personal setting it is another matter. Many of us are friends and some of us are family. But this is public, and there are more strangers and brief aquaintenances than there are family and friends. Any measure of politeness requires refraining from off-color remarks. It's precisely this kind of wisdom that kept us from killing ourselves off as soon as we ran out of elbow-room on this planet.

There are things in this forum written in 1970 and since. What you post is retained for some kind of posterity. Long after the heat of the moment is gone, harsh and abrasive tones will no longer be evident; only a lack of wit will remain for others to see. Anyone who has ever read an old, flaming thread will probably agree that it's just tired and lame after time has gone by. Anything interesting you may have wanted to say will remain unread as people eagerly skip to the next post.

There is always a matter of freedom. But do not forget that there is always a matter of freedom of judgement, as well: people judge you on whether you use your freedom wisely or frivolously, kindly or meanly, generously or selfishly. When one is free, one is free to get himself lynched. I notice that those who insist on the freedom to use adult language are the first ones to complain bitterly when others have used their freedom to desire them expelled from the place that they'd choose to enjoy.

So what I am saying is: lay off the foul language. Usually what is potentially offensive is also probably stupid, and in the end you better yourself.

Harumph.

[[Syl]]

Even if you didn't intend it, Wayfriend, your post insinuates that people who cuss are illiterate. I, for one, take exception to your remark. I have a verbal IQ in the 99.7 percentile, am versed in four foreign languages, well read, have exceptional grammar, and, as my submission to the KW Anthology will hopefully show, I'm a decent writer.

True, I don't cuss that much here, but that's out of respect to others. Sometimes, however, cussing is appropriate. If it doesn't go against the spirit of the conversation, and it's the most effective way to show emotion (and who would not argue that written text often lacks needed emotional context?), to do otherwise would be intellectually dishonest and needlessly verbose.

Some people's minds don't work that way. That's fine. Nobody is making people cuss. But some people have a natural proclivity for profanities: sailors, like myself, and members of lower class upbringing (again, like myself) being two examples.

And to whom is this board dedicated? Loremaster has already mentioned the adult material of all the books. But what do you think Donaldson's views on censorship are? I'll bet you he would surely frown on blanket censorship.

If I want polite society, I'll go to an art exhibition. I come to Kevin's Watch for open, honest conversation with like-minded souls. To me, this place is more like a friend's house than a meeting hall.

[ChoChiyo]

Well said, Sylvanus. (A sailor, huh? I do love a man in uniform....especially those sweet sailor whites. hee hee.)

Don't be scared. I'm just teasing you. (But I do like those sailor whites.)

Heh. And don't think me a bad girl--but I do enjoy using strong language from time to time. There's an art to good cussing.

For me, (I reiterate), it's about not using bad language to bludgeon another person verbally.

However, I also believe that OVERuse of profanity renders it flavorless. Which is why I prefer to use it sparingly.

[dennisrwood]

i cuss mightily at work. with verve an accuracy sometimes. and other times i strafe all those within my sight. here, i don't feel the need. can get my point across well enough with other words. i have felt the urge, yes a powerful urge...

[kevinswatch]

Ok, let's just calm down.

We're just having a mature discussion about this thing. I'm not planning to start acting like some sort of dictator and censor every single "bad" word to the ground so that the Watch becomes G-rated. Personally I don't think I have the need to censor any word. The only one censored right now is the f-word.

So yeah, just calm down. I understand why people feel that since SRD's books are written for mature adults, then the language here should respect that.

However, I hope you understand that I'm just trying to make an environment here where everyone feels comfortable and everyone is respected.

This does not mean that I'm going to censor every word and start banning people who curse. We've never done that in the past, and I don't really plan to start doing it now. I respect people's right to use whatever language they want. This isn't the FCC, heh.

However, I also hope that the Watch is a mature enough place so that if someone has a real problem with the language someone else is using, and I mean a real problem, then we are all mature enough and comfortable enough to talk to each other about it. If someone is using language that you don't feel comfortable with, then talk to them about it. And if there is still a problem, you can talk to me about it.

Really, my whole point is that I don't want to see what's going on now...a sort of aimless arguing about the use of language. Because we've been using the Watch for four years now, and this has never been a problem before. Because we're all mature people. So I don't think this is a big enough problem that we can't work through it.

So far we've been lucky enough to be sitting in the middle... I don't see widespread cursing. It seems to be used with moderation, and that's fine. And we don't really have anyone who's complaining that we should censor every word under the sun. There have been a few instances where people have said that they were uncomfortable with the language someone else was using, and that's fine. We worked though it.

So yeah...I don't think this is a big enough problem for us to get all worked up over. Right now we're just keeping the status quo, since it's worked so well so far. But if anyone is having any problems, I encourage them to talk to me or one of the other Admins. Seriously, don't be shy. Speak up and we'll work it out.

I'm a very flexible person. If don't like how something is done here, or if you feel uncomfortable about something, just speak up, heh.-jay

[Creator]

I have an idea!

Create a Profanity Forum!!

Those who have a need to swear can post in it! [But not in the thread titles!]

What do you think jay? F***ing good idea - heh?

[kevinswatch]

...Er...yeah... Heh.

Next you'll be asking me for a Porno Forum. Heh.-jay

[Baradakas]

I thought we had something like that once...

[aliantha]

I agree with Jay and with Wayfriend. I haven't seen any pure-profanity flames here, just a cuss word now and then. We seem to have done fine by taking them on a case-by-case basis so far. I don't see any reason for draconian measures.

That said, this *is* a literary discussion board. SRD chooses his words, even his curse words, with great care. Hopefully we can all continue to emulate him with our posts on the Watch.

BTW, the sister of a friend told my friend that her New Year's resolution was to stop swearing so much. Her college-age son responded: "So Mom, does that mean you're going to stop driving?"

-- aliantha (who swears more in real life than her former-sailor ex-husband)