Is The creator Our Creator, and Lord Foul Our Satan?

Post by **Tohrm** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:58 pm

Yes, our Creator allows our 'despiser' ie. satan to wander through our world, but would he allow an alien evil to wander through our world? I don't think so. Our Creator knows that there are enough 'banes' in our world without the introduction of a foreign influence that would tip the scales in any direction, for good or evil. Yes we have 'banes' as well as the land. Nuclear power in and of itself is good, but anybody who says the bomb is good has rocks in their head.
I grant you the point that the creator of the land elected TC to be the one who came through the portal for lack of a better term at this point. It is entirely possible that LF and DR were just trying to summon anyone from our land. It is entirely possible, nay probable seeing the context of those quotes, that the creator was able to steer the summoning to take TC instead of someone else.
But I still don't believe that our Creator would allow any other creator or despiser to work in his land for any length of time without slamming the door shut on them, and hopefully catch their fingers in the door at the time. LF had to have been working in our land for quite some time in the 2nd chrons to have perverted as many people as he did. And these people had no idea what was happening to them (possibly hypnosis/possession?) He would allow the free choice of His people, but not that evil act from a 'visitor' to His land. Certainly He could not extend His hand inside the AoT in our land, but such a portal would have to extend without. And it is there that our Creator could have destroyed it, without breaking the AoT.

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Jun 20, 2002 3:36 pm

Yes, our Creator allows our 'despiser' ie. satan to wander through our world, but would he allow an alien evil to wander through our world? I don't think so

interesting .. but just how do you test such a premise??

But that still does not explain how our Creator would even allow such a being as LF, who is so patently evil, to even get the time of day from this world.

A quandry I concur .. but in SRD's creation .. it surely worked that way .. so it would seem that 'our Creator' tolerated such cross-dimensional contact by all participants .. where this contact was secured through access to some form of universal law or medium..

Maybe its like .. some believe they can commune with spirits of our dearly departed .. now whether this can be done or not .. is moot .. but in those circumstances where they assert they do gain contact .. maybe it is by the exercise of a law/or medium that allows such contact.

haha .. its very funny .. to be taking this debate to this level .. as it is all speculative .. afterall .. the result of a severe lack of imperical evidence to support any assertion in favour or opposed to your premise relating to 'our Creator's rules'.

Post by **Bannor** » Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:20 pm

Caamora, I agree with you completely. There are numerous similarities, but enough differences to make it still fantasy! What a great writer SRD is!

Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:03 pm

I didn't have time to read the topic thoroughly, so I really shouldn't reply, but...

I do have religion, but I don't think the bible has any more answers than any other good work of fiction. I mean, maybe the god and satan mentioned in it are the real ones, but did god really write the bible ordid someone who wanted people to think that write it? So I won't take proofs from the bible.

The Creator and Lf seem only concerned with the Land. LF never takes anyone's soul from our world that we know of, and the Creator is very different from the god most people believe in: he can't reach through to us. No voice of god in your heart for the Landdwellers! So let's say that gods and LF-types live in their own level, and there are maybe as many as there are people, each with their own creations. They have an ordinary, every-day life, and they're only really supreme and all-powerful seeming to us.So if that's the way SRD is thinking of it, then the Creator or LF could no more reach into our world and just go about healing lepers than I could reach anyone's elses creation and fix things. Our creator or whatever has to do that, and he created things so he could reach in and fix things veeery subtly, but a little more ostentatiously that the Creator of the Land. Maybe the society-of-gods has its own hierarchy of gods, too....but let's not go there

Hey, maybe TC is the creator of our world

! The quote kinda says it, the your world-my world thing....
Or maybe our world doesn't exist. Maybe the Land is the only Land there really is, and ours only existed to create TC and without him it does n't exist.And also to create LA, of course. And anyone else the Land might need. But that's silly.
Maybe SRD didn't mean for us to reconcile this one?

Post by **Skyweir** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:52 am

good to see you fmi!! .. you have been missed here at the watch!! .. I will come back later today and comment .. you raise some very interesting points!!

I especially find the 'realm of Creator's' idea fascinating!! I really like that .. and the fact that they are just normal kinda blokes .. that just seem all supreme to us .. here in a limiting mortal type realm.

Its hard to entertain the notion of TC's world not being real .. but anything is possible!

And I totally get where you're going with the bible thing .. ofcourse you are right .. christians and jews alike dont assert that God himself, wrote a single word in the biblical text .. (apart from the 10 Commandment's Stone Tablet .. which He is supposed to have inscribed with one of His own fingers!) .. but well .. that's not around now ..

.. so we cant use that as an example.

The scribes who did record in this biblical text .. were trained professional scibes and it was their job to keep record of the dealings 'man' at that time had with their God .. and I am sure there are instances where there were some who scribed .. embellished accounts to make their God seem greater than the Gods of the other peoples in close proximity to the Israelites .. (ie the Phillistine's etc) .. it was all important to the then Israelites to portray their God as being the most powerful God .. in their quest for a land to call their own .. again .. and to strike fear in the hearts of those they wished whose lands they wished to usurp .. and presumably also to gain strict compliance to the instructions they received from their God.

I do not assert that the Bible is fiction though .. I believe their is truth therein .. but to access that truth .. at various points some presciptive micro-surgery needs to be performed to reveal its presence.

anyway fascinating points fmi!! .. I will return to explore some of them further ..

Post by **Tohrm** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:07 am

FMI, there is one small point that I want to bring up. LF might not have taken anybody's soul over to the land, but he did corrupt at least a dozen souls in our world. 1st book, 2nd chrons., TWL, when he subverted all of those loonies to summon him to our realm. I agree that they might have started out in the religion that he worked up on their own But if you read it closely, it shows all of the signs of hypnosis or possession. That is one of the points that I am trying to make.
Sky, you have made a whole lot of good points too. I am in the process of rereading both chrons right now to see if I have missed anything else.

Post by **Nerdanel** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:21 am

I just want to say there IS gravity in space. It keeps planets in its orbits. This universality of it was the thing that was truly groundbreaking in Newton's theories of gravity.

Post by **Skyweir** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:00 pm

mmm .. t'would appear I spoke amiss .. my most humble retraction re: my no gravity in space comment ..

Post by **Bannor** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:04 pm

I hope I can add my 2 cents worth without appearing to be loony or preachy. The Bible was written by human hands but with divine guidance. The Bible is infallible/100% accurate (at least from the Greek and Hebrew: translations are always subject to mistakes). Nothing else, no hard feelings toward anyone (in fact, I think many of the best people in this world are right here), just wanted to stand up for the Bible--God's Holy Word.

Post by **caamora** » Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:15 am

Well done, Bannor.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:59 pm

I also wish to extend my praise to bannor .. I do not wish to offend your faith .. that is not my intent .. I also believe in God .. I do not think a God is prone to erring ..

I do acknowledge that anything in man's hand is not without error ..

The Jewish appointed scribes to record accounts of godly and faith promoting dealings .. and sometimes these accounts were recorded many years after the event ..

I accept that it is a record written under inspiration .. that has been translated so many times .. that .. a game of chinese whispers .. begins to account for some interpretations having their meaning altered from any original version.

None of this destroys my faith in a God .. or even in Christ .. I believe mankind are part of their plan and we're what he has to work with .. and we're not perfect .. we err ..

Monty Python's 'Life of Brian' more beautifully gives homage to this assertion ..

Post by **Bannor** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:14 pm

Thanks, Sky, but no offense taken.

Just wanted to get my 2 cents in. You are a great guy and a super chess player!

Post by **caamora** » Wed Jul 03, 2002 9:04 pm

Oh no! The temptation to start a Monty Python thread is almost too great!

However, Bannor, thank you for putting so succinctly what I could not.

Post by **danlo** » Wed Jul 03, 2002 11:02 pm

Don't we have a Monty Python thread? We used 2....

Post by **Bannor** » Thu Jul 04, 2002 1:57 am

Thank you for the kind words, Caamora! I think you put things very well, yourself!

Post by **fightingmyinstincts** » Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:15 am

I wonder about gods and creators a lot...I find a lot of my most posing posers to think about from books...and places like this. I"m glad nice little enclaves of smart people like this exist.
As to the bible, even if I was Christian, I would prefer to make my own path. I just can't trust other people's....whatevers. I have to philosophically beat out my own doctrine, because while every religion has some truth, none is all truth, and rather accept a flaw I would make something new. I think everyone should do that. Nothing sits right with me, unless I have agonized over it to the point where I feel sure of it.
I still think LF seemed just a bit preoccupied with the Land to be operating as Satan in our world. And since their Creator refers to this as our world, not his, LF probably views it that way, too. What relationship their Creator/LF has w/ ours, I have no idea, except that I don't think they are the same.
Here's an interesting question: Do you think LF has as much power in the Land as Satan does here? Overtly, the Land gets totally screwed, but look around. We're pretty screwed too, just not as overtly, and therefore not as overtly fixable.
Anyways, glad to know I didn't singe anybody's tail feathers. Religion is a veerrry touchy subject that I just can't stay away from.

Thw Wounded Moose · Post by **Thw Wounded Moose** » Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:59 am

Speaking of religion...

Anyone see that new South Park on the Catholic Church? Good stuff

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:44 am

hehe .. The religious commentary through the medium of the Simpson's .. totally animates the core issues too! Not into South Park .. though I am lead to believe it is also funny!

Religion is a veerrry touchy subject that I just can't stay away from.

I love to discuss religion .. but moreso spiritual issues .. and I think it can be discussed without stomping on others view points .. Infact on the old forum we had a reasonably successful religious thread ..

We dont have to go about singe-ing tail feathers .. nor be so sensitive and defensive that we see someother poster as a singe - er of tail feathers ..

If we all respect different view points from our own .. we may actually find we learn something from the experience .. I do believe that no owns a monopoly on intelligence or knowledge .. and an exploration into any issue can prove instructive. We have a broad and diverse group of people here at the Watch .. and if we adopt the virtues SRD creatively established for the inhabitants of his Land .. prior to the sunbane .. we will show the requisite respect and consideration needed for such a discussion.

I agree LF and Satan are very different characters .. sharing a similar agenda to destroy the Creator's creation and escape his imposed prison and reclaim what they believe is their rightful place in the Universe.

and yet .. it was Kevin that uttered the Ritual of Desecration .. not LF .. but Kevin in his absolute despair couldnt see any other way to remove the problem of LF .. In this world .. Satan perpetuates similar despair and doubt .. which lead humankind to through whatever means .. to reak destruction upon this planet and this people .. each other .. lines are drawn in the sand seperating members of the same spiritual family and contention stirred up in hearts to wage war against each other. Similarly using 'us' to work his 'evil' purposes.

The Creator also shares a similar agenda with the Creator of this world .. a desire exists in them to inspire hope among his creation .. to save his world .. and those that live in it .. the difference being that in our world .. we are told we are divine offspring of our Creator .. whereas in the Land .. the inhabitants of his world are not indicated as being related to him.

Post by **fightingmyinstincts** » Fri Jul 05, 2002 1:02 am

btw, the Jehovah's Witnesses came the other day....

Post by **Loredoctor** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 11:34 am

If you read the last few pages of TPTP you'll come across some evidence that suggests the creator did not create our world. He states that when Covenant was taken to the hospital for the rattlesnake bite he was given antivenin, but was unsure as to what antivenin meant. If the creator did create our world, he would know what antivenin was.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Is The creator Our Creator, and Lord Foul Our Satan?

Our own Despiser

Hmmmm...

The Bible

Thanks

Don't we have a Monty Python thread?

I'm baaa-aaack!

Well met and well spoken!