On the Nature of White Gold

[Lucky Jim]

White gold, then, is like the magnifying glass burning the ants - it brings his power into focus. So SRD is leading us further down the path of the nature of these objects of power (the krill, the Staff of Law, etc.). You could say that all of them serve to articulate the power of the holder. Which brings us back to the question of the source of the WIELDER'S power. And that source seems to be the mixture of passion and guilt so prevalent in TC and Linden - and now, seemingly, Joan. LFB really opened my eyes to her possibilities - she would do anything to protect her son from leprosy, even if that meant sacrificing her marriage. (And, when TC has a case of writer's block, she chooses to jeopardize that marriage by leaving him for a time so that TC could focus on his writing - another arguably selfless act). On some level, she must be plagued with guilt for abandoning her husband when he needed her the most.

Joan has a lot more in common with TC and Linden than meets the eye.

Roger, on the other hand...what a punk.

I'm not so sure. It seems to me that Joan symbolizes the results of giving into despair; the lack of inner strength or will requisite to bear what must (or should) be borne. I found myself lacking any empathy for her character. Even Covenant looks on her as a responsibility that must be discharged, rather then as someone to be equal to. That is to say, with pity rather then admiration. And who could blame him? She's a moral bankrupt.

[Warmark Jay]

I'm not so sure. It seems to me that Joan symbolizes the results of giving into despair; the lack of inner strength or will requisite to bear what must (or should) be borne. I found myself lacking any empathy for her character. Even Covenant looks on her as a responsibility that must be discharged, rather then as someone to be equal to. That is to say, with pity rather then admiration. And who could blame him? She's a moral bankrupt.

And yet she's able to create caesures, and summon TC to the Land - two things that Linden is unable to do. Morality aside (I'm not defending her choices, but I'd say that they have been made out of ignorance rather than malice - I wouldn't call her evil; stupid, maybe), if we're talking about the nature of white gold, clearly she has some quality that gives her the ability to enunciate (jeebus, I'm started to sound like SRD) that power.

[wayfriend]

I think that everyone here is taking the logic of the story further than it was meant to be taken.

* Covenant is powerful because he is from outside the Earth.

* The old man chose Covenant because he is familiar with despair.

* The ring is Covenant's chosen means of articulation, for whatever reason.

* Covenent's inherent power, weilded through his ring, is given a form and substance which is called wild magic.

* The Land's prophesies of White Gold and Wild Magic were suited to predict this combination when it arrived. In fact, through a bit of alogical fantasy magic, the Earth and the Arch of Time were constructed based on this combination. They follow what was established above; they don't cause what was established above.

So ...

Joan, and Linden, and Roger, and Jeremiah, and Sandy, are potentially powerful because they are from outside the Earth.

Joan has apparently chosen a similar means of articulation of her power as her husband did. (It should not be surprising, given the object that was chosen to articulate it.) That doesn't mean that anyone with a white gold ring would be able to do that. And it doesn't mean that Joan is weilding Covenant's power; she's weilding her own.

Covenant giving his ring to someone is not the same as someone getting their own white gold ring at a store. When Covenant gives his ring, he hands over his means of articulation, and in a symbolic/sympathetic sense, he gives over his power - he power which is called in the land wild magic. The power does not arise from the ring; any other ring would not be the same. A ring from a store might not do anything, but we'll never know, because I'm sure the story will never explore that idea.

[Lucky Jim]

And yet she's able to create caesures, and summon TC to the Land - two things that Linden is unable to do. Morality aside (I'm not defending her choices, but I'd say that they have been made out of ignorance rather than malice - I wouldn't call her evil; stupid, maybe), if we're talking about the nature of white gold, clearly she has some quality that gives her the ability to enunciate (jeebus, I'm started to sound like SRD) that power.

Actually, Linden did create a caesure (after she'd aquired the staff of law). As to summoning, well Joan didn't do that either. TC was already in the land when she arrived.

In terms of the nature of white gold, I'd agree it is obvious, from the only legitimate reference available (ie the books), that she has power. But this raises a different point which I alluded to in the post you respond to: if the contradiction of strength and guilt is the paradox that gives white gold (Covenant) power, then where is the paradox in Joan? She is madness and guilt - despair.

From earlier books we know that such walking train wrecks don't require a tool of any kind. All that's left to them is the ritual of desecration (Kevin, Triock) where the conduit for power is merely a tortured existence beyond consolation. I can't reconcile this with white gold.

Perhaps it's the case that the white gold acts a vehicle for any type of passion. In which case it makes sense that Joan is able to use it in the sense she does. The implication then being that it's a misleading idea to label TC as white gold. He was merely one individual that used a tool (white gold) in a particular way; a tool that might have been used by others to any other end.

[dlbpharmd]

She's a moral bankrupt.

Would you elaborate on this please? What makes Joan a moral bankrupt?

[Warmark Jay]

Actually, Linden did create a caesure (after she'd aquired the staff of law). As to summoning, well Joan didn't do that either. TC was already in the land when she arrived.

Sorry - typo, meant to say that Joan summoned Linden. And my impression was that Linden "wrangled" a caesure that had already been created. Again, could be wrong (good excuse to re-read ROTE).

In terms of the nature of white gold, I'd agree it is obvious, from the only legitimate reference available (ie the books), that she has power. But this raises a different point which I alluded to in the post you respond to: if the contradiction of strength and guilt is the paradox that gives white gold (Covenant) power, then where is the paradox in Joan? She is madness and guilt - despair.

But that madness and guilt has its origins in what was, for her, an act of moral strength - sacrificing her marriage to save her son.

[Lucky Jim]

Would you elaborate on this please? What makes Joan a moral bankrupt?

Happily. The act of desertion at the beginning of the books is inexcusable. The disease is horrible, yes, a correlation between childhood exposure and its appearance has been established, indeed, but, alternatively, when one loves someone one does not abandon them in their absolute moment of need.

Moreover, medically, the risk of exposure to the disease is not absolute (ie it does not necessarily follow that one leads to the other in every, or even the preponderance, of instances).

This leads one to the view that Joan is a moral leper. Someone who'd just as soon turn her back on what one might recognize as the ethical and humane course of action, as follow it. A moral bankrupt, in short.

[Lucky Jim]

Sorry - typo, meant to say that Joan summoned Linden. And my impression was that Linden "wrangled" a caesure that had already been created. Again, could be wrong (good excuse to re-read ROTE).

You'll find that she corrupted time to achieve a caesure - I have the passage in front of me if you'd like the pg# etc.

But that madness and guilt has its origins in what was, for her, an act of moral strength - sacrificing her marriage to save her son.

Arguably, it was an act of cowardice. A particularly ugly sort of cowardice in that their son is used as a device by which she legitimizes her own abandonment of Covenant. My reading was that she was simply repulsed by and frightened of his illness.

[Warmark Jay]

Happily. The act of desertion at the beginning of the books is inexcusable. The disease is horrible, yes, a correlation between childhood exposure and its appearance has been established, indeed, but, alternatively, when one loves someone one does not abandon them in their absolute moment of need.

In her mind, though, she was doing what she had to do to protect her son. She felt that there was no choice; that Covenant's disease was a death sentence and that the only moral thing to do was to keep Roger from suffering that same fate. In that way, it was a moral choice - the choice to save one life instead of sacrificing two. As a father I empathize with her plight.

[I'm Murrin]

And after she abandoned TC, she felt terrible about it. Her guilt was so bad that after she called him (tIW) and he didn't speak to her (because he was in the Land), she joined a cult to try and gain forgiveness and redeem herself, but this only led her closer to despair, and allowed the Despiser to get a hold over her. It was her attempts to alleviate her guilt, and to desire to make things right again, that drove her further into despair and madness.
The paradox is thus: she wants to make things better, but her guilt only allows her to cause more damage. She is also both potent and helpless, in that she has the ability to articulate the Wild Magic, but has lost her mind.

[The Pumpkin King]

I think that the book Berenford handed to Linden (Forgot the name) that Covenant wrote essentially stated the essence of where wild magic comes from within him in the land. That innocence is good, but impotent, and that guilt is power, and only the damned can be saved. This can apply to Linden, and Joan too equally well. Linden feels a failure to have protected her son; a missed opportunity to save him from all this in the start of Runes. Joan, in her insanity and her desire to redeem herself.

It might be worth noting that the Lords only began to truly comprehend Kevin's lore when they opened themselves up to despair.

EDIT: Whoops! I'm glad I caught that error before anyone else did.

[dlbpharmd]

The name of that book was "Or I Will Sell My Soul for Guilt."

(Now, why didn't MrK ask THAT question in the trivia thread?)

[Warmark Jay]

And after she abandoned TC, she felt terrible about it. Her guilt was so bad that after she called him (tIW) and he didn't speak to her (because he was in the Land), she joined a cult to try and gain forgiveness and redeem herself, but this only led her closer to despair, and allowed the Despiser to get a hold over her. It was her attempts to alleviate her guilt, and to desire to make things right again, that drove her further into despair and madness.
The paradox is thus: she wants to make things better, but her guilt only allows her to cause more damage. She is also both potent and helpless, in that she has the ability to articulate the Wild Magic, but has lost her mind.

My point exactly. It's too easy to write Joan off as a selfish, immoral loon. I don't think SRD is letting us off the hook by allowing us to easily judge her, and it seems to me that he needs to establish the consistancy of the paradox.

[Lucky Jim]

And after she abandoned TC, she felt terrible about it. Her guilt was so bad that after she called him (tIW) and he didn't speak to her (because he was in the Land), she joined a cult to try and gain forgiveness and redeem herself, but this only led her closer to despair, and allowed the Despiser to get a hold over her. It was her attempts to alleviate her guilt, and to desire to make things right again, that drove her further into despair and madness.

Yes, and it is precisely because of this selfish motive (ie the alleviation of her guilt), that she becomes even more contemptible. How does SRD put it, "in punishing oneself, one comes to merit punishment". Self flagellation is a selfish and destructive pursuit unless it serves as a motivator to set things right. Which, in the case of Joan, it didn't. She never tried outside a single phone call years after the fact - and then never again. Call me crazy, but a betrayal on the order of hers warranted rather more than one call...

The paradox is thus: she wants to make things better, but her guilt only allows her to cause more damage. She is also both potent and helpless, in that she has the ability to articulate the Wild Magic, but has lost her mind.

The "paradox" you refer to is the fruit of despair. That is to say, not a proper paradox at all. I'm honestly not sure what you're driving at here.

[yoursovain]

Everybody is searching for the personal qualities of the white gold user as the key to wild magic. This IMHO this is missing the eighth ward of SRD

I was thinking that perhaps the wild magic is created in the bonds/committments/intimacies between Covenant and others - a relational not individual focus. As part of the wild magic theme it seems sex is a central part of this - not just sex in itself but sex in balance with the committment involved in love.

I started to see all this law vs wild magic stuff as like balancing the life/death energy of sex with the law/landservice of committment to another. Lena is a good eg of 'wild' sex without any committment/meaningful connection. The Haruchai are a good eg of order/structure/law without this wildness - they live forever but they left their wives and this balance behind - much to their cost and now the land's cost.

I love the idea in an earlier post in this thread that the land started with the marriage of TC and Joan in their world, leprosy as desecration etc. It seems to focus the drive of the chronicles on the committment that marriage involves - of which the ring is only a symbol, even if it's a powerful one. It also explains how Joan has the next most powerful access to wild magic despite all her destructiveness - she is the other half however badly she manages the struggle. In line with this sex/committment connection - Roger is literally the product of this union.

What about Linden? Well, she came to help Covenant and stuck by him and they became lovers in the 2nd chrons. This doesn't change the fact that the original committment was begun with the marriage and thus the two rings are the two 'articulators' of wild magic, not just any white gold ring from a jewellery store.

What about Covenant as white gold in TWGW? Well, this just means that the source of the wild magic AND the faith for commitment is within him, his passion, his sex balanced with the commitment to his wife, to Linden, to his son. This not just allows for but demands that all these people participate in this drama of sex and committment and it does not dilute the power of this drama as it would if white gold meant the 'idolising' of some power or a tool of power. It also parallels Mhoram's discovery of the balance between the powerful destructive force of despair balanced with the service/commitment to the land and its inhabitants.

I know sex and love and such matters are rarely mentioned in fantasy/sci-fi circles but I think grappling with this struggle between sex/commitment, death/life, despair/hope in relational and sexual terms is what sets SRD apart - who else centrepieces marriage and rape in their imagined worlds?

So you see: it's all sex and love, baby

[Ken Socrates]

Thats a lot to wrap your brain around, dude. Interesting ideas, though. Pass the bong while I give this some more thought...

[finn]

the White Gold's potency is in 'wild magic'. By definition it is not readily contained nor controlled. A number of posts in this thread seem to imbue Joan with some sort of status due to "creation" of Caesures and refer to her use of wild magic.

Covenant took a few books before he could wield it deliberately and only came to be able to have some measure of control through anguish and suffering. Now Joan's anguish and suffering may qualify her as a potential candidate to be a person capable of wielding power, but the Caesures seem to have been created from her hospital bed where her self possesion was at best minimal and her power of choice limited to that of a plant turning towards the light.

There is no evidence that she's anything more than a vegetable in the Land and that could be her part; to show TC how things can be broken. Roger could be be twisted/corrupted (even more so than appantly he is): these are devices used by Lord Foul before.

I think that White Gold is going to be a feature of the books, but literally not allegorically; at best there might be some interesting parallels. My train of thought for this is that there are now two rings in the Land and the White Gold question has not been answered within the context of the "logic" of the Land.

White Gold and Wild Magic was known in the land prior to TC coming in the first Chronicles. I've posted this elsewhere and get the literal answers, ..."Berek was informed by.." etc. etc. But the root logic is still at odds with itself. Despite the obvious that the books are fantasy and thus magic is a part of the natural universe, there has to be some obedience to the rules within the created universe, otherwise we end up with 55 minutes of tension building drama concluded by yet another previously unknown use for a tachyon beam!

I think that this needs to be resolved to achieve a roundness of the collective work and I think SRD would not leave it hanging, unless he thought he might want to come back to the Land again one day.

One other thought, for those of us who have been through divorce/separation, the concepts of oathbreaking, moral bankruptcy, betrayal, etc. take on a tangible meaning. What despair is there in having the closest person to you walk away and abandon you. SRD is divorced and some of those concepts may well filter through into his writings; indeed it may be a need on his part to reconcile them.