Jeremiah's birthright?

[Borillar]

At one point, Anele says that "[Jeremiah's] birthright has been torn from him. Mine I have lost." I don't think we get any more than that on the subject, do we?

[Revan]

Can you get a quote?

[MrKABC]

Hmmm... I didn't catch that quote.. where was it?

[Borillar]

Page 107 of my copy: "At last [Anele] said, 'You have a son.' His voice was a forelorn sigh, filled with decades of bereavement and suffering. 'His birthright has been torn from him. Mine I have lost. I am not worthy of protection. I live only because I am the Land's last hope.'"

[danlo]

Maybe his disconnection with our world after being touched by Foul in the fire?

[amanibhavam]

Yes, that is an intriguing sentence, I just bumped into it yesterday on my second reading of RotE. It suggests some interesting questions:
- how does he know about Jeremiah?
- is it possible that J was drawn into the Land when he put his hand into the fire? That would mean him being around in the Land ever since the Second Chronicles, maybe even earlier than TC and LA, as minutes passed between his immolation and our heroes' summoning?
- confer this also with Roger's assurance (moksha Raver speaking from him?) that there has been nobody around in Jeremiah's body for ten years
- is J the Mahdoubt?
- just what on Earth his birthright _can_ be? His ability to communicate? Is J somebody like Honninscrave, having a vision that he cannot communicate?
- will J take the place of Roger as Covenant's true son? maybe TC will reincarnate himself somehow in J? (okay, a wild idea, I know)

[native]

- is it possible that J was drawn into the Land when he put his hand into the fire? That would mean him being around in the Land ever since the Second Chronicles, maybe even earlier than TC and LA, as minutes passed between his immolation and our heroes' summoning?

Yes most here think that must be the case. But why him and not the other cultists? Clearly Joan left some part of herself in the land too.

My guess remains that Jeremiah's consciousness was in the land but not his body. He was a croyel.

[wayfriend]

Anele knows about Jeremiah because Linden told him. 'His birthright has been torn from him' is simply a reference to the kidnapping. He phrased it in this way because he was trying to make a point involving a contrast between himself and Jeremiah, both of whom are sons. The point being that Jeremiah is not responsible for his dilemna, but Anele is.

That's all it is, I'm afraid.

[Creator]

My guess remains that Jeremiah's consciousness was in the land but not his body. He was a croyel.

I don't think so! One Jeremiah cannot generate a RACE of croyel!!

[native]

I don't think so! One Jeremiah cannot generate a RACE of croyel!!

Ah but do we know they were a race? We saw two, but not simultaneously, and there's at least some reason to think that the Arguleh croyel was recent, perhaps post-dating the death of Kasreyn.

We do have Findail's comment however. "It was of the croyel-beings of hunger and sustenance which demnify the dark places of the Earth. Those who bargain thus for life or might with the croyel are damned beyond redemption."

That does rather suggest there was at that time more than one (though the Elohim don't know everything and perhaps don't always tell the simple truth.) But even if there were more than one, there's the other cultists to consider. Jeremiah was not the only one to put his hand into the fire - as the author emphasised at the start of Runes. The other cultists may have been the other croyel at the time of the second chronicles.

[drew]

The Whaynin knew what a croyel was too, and they've been hiding underground since the onset of the Sunbane.

[native]

The Whaynin knew what a croyel was too, and they've been hiding underground since the onset of the Sunbane.

iirc they'd heard the name rather than knew what they were. We don't really know how or where they heard. Nor do we really know at what point Jeremiah half-entered the land. There's no reason to assume it was when his hand was burned. The cultists were clearly possessed by Foul already, and had been for months. That would translate into hundreds of years of presence in the Land.

[danlo]

Ah so now you're saying that Jeremiah gave the inklings of understanding to Nom!? (oops! That may not be that crazy a theory after all... )

[native]

Ah so now you're saying that Jeremiah gave the inklings of understanding to Nom!?

Interesting thought, but no, I wasn't saying that myself. The croyel were responsible for the imprisonment of Nom, not, so far as I know, his enlightenment. Although they may have taught him enough to obey his summons.

But I have noted that Sandgorgon's Doom could be an early sighting of a caesure, and sandgorgons themselves appear to have a similar time sense to the Ranhym in relation to the speed with which they answer their summons. Supposition piled on supposition of course, but perhaps indicative of an outside agency at work.