China Mieville

[Ken Socrates]

I've read Perdido Street Station and I'm in the middle of The Scar and I'm wondering if anyone in here feels like I do. Mieville is one of the very few authors whose inventiveness and penchance for dark plot lines matches Donaldson's. Dense, absorbing and full of characters pushed to physical and emotional extremes.

The one thing I require of my fantasy, beyond good writing, characters, etc.., is originality. The list of those fantasy writers with true creative vision is very small, in my opinion.

Tolkien
Donaldson
George R.R. Martin
China Mieville

I know there are a few others. Opinions?

[Ainulindale]

First, I think Mieville is perhaps the best talent to come into fanatsy in a long time. Perdido Street Station and The Scar are already regarded as modern classics of fantasy, and not only garner fan attention but critical attention that eludes all but few fantasy writers. His last effort Iron Council,, IMHO was not as good as the prior 2 but probably still will win some awards for last year. His first genre work, King Rat, is a solid darker remake of the classic Pied Piper folk tale, with a steampunk twist.

Althoguh I absolutely love and admire all those authors on your list, if I a had such a list in terms of creativity, (relative to their time of course) are:

Mervyn Peake
JRR Tolkien
Fritz Lieber
Michael Moorcock

In terms of recent authors I would firmly agree and put peope likes Mieville, Matthew Rossi, Rhys Hughes, Jeff Vandermeer, among some others however I would put all of them in some regards from the Moorcock school of fantasy, if not Moorcock than Peake, or perhaps M. John Harrison.. Also dont forget about people like:
Jonathan Carroll, Charles de Lint, and Tim Powers who are all incredible.

Hmmm...can't forget Pratchett, no one is doing what he is doing, Discworld is defintely creative.

[Roland of Gilead]

Mieville was my best discovery of last year. Perdido Street Station and The Scar are as good as the accolades would indicate. A truly original voice and incredibly imaginative and gutsy. Don't read Mieville if you fear to be shocked or disturbed.

Of the authors you mention as the best and most creative, I would agree. I haven't read some of the newer authors like Van Der Meer, but Powers can certainly hold his own.

And I would personally add Stephen King and Guy Gavriel Kay as great fantasists who aren't just Tolkien clones.

Underappreciated epic fantasy writers are Paul Kearney (similar to Martin) and Chaz Brenchley (similar to Kay), but neither are as influential as Donaldson or Tolkien.

[Warmark Jay]

Haven't read Mieville, but am about 50 pages into Steven Erikson's "Gardens of the Moon".

Post-SRD epic fantasy is, by and large, derivative s*** written for junior high schoolers. Erikson got my money through SRD's endorsement of him. Very, very good - characters with depth, a complex world, and plotlines to make one's head spin.

Another good one - Lian Hearn. "Tales of the Otori" is a trilogy set in a medieval, imaginary Japan.

Oh, and don't believe the hype surrounding Susanna Clarke's "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell". It's good, but not great; her influences (namely Patrick O'Brien and J.K. Rowling) are painfully obvious.

[Ken Socrates]

I would agree with that comment about post-SRD fantasy, pickings are very, very slim. Too many Terry Brooks, Robert Jordans, David Eddings, so forth and so on...

I absolutely love getting tips on new authors to check out. Erikson sounds like he's worth a look and I've always had a fascination with Medieval Japan so I'm sure to look into Hearn, too, so thanks.

Vandermeer is a name I've been hearing tons of in the last few months and have searched all my local bookstores for Veniss Underground with no luck whatsoever. That and The Light Ages by Ian MacLeod are at the top of the list in my neverending Book Quest.

Anyone recommend The Etched City by K.J. Bishop? Like the others it comes up in comparison to Mieville.

So many books so little time....

[Ainulindale]

Oh, and don't believe the hype surrounding Susanna Clarke's "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell". It's good, but not great; her influences (namely Patrick O'Brien and J.K. Rowling) are painfully obvious.

Depends on prefrences, this novel far surpasses it's hype IMHO, and like said before I simply see no Rowling comparisons, by the same token one can say the same about Donaldson in reference to Tolkien, besides both being women, british, and sharing publisher companies, their are no similarities I see in regards to prose or content, like I said more apt comparison is Jane Austin IMHO. Best novel of last year, clearly IMHO. I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it:) If someone is looking for hack & slash action, than their looking at the wrong book here.

Vandermeer is a name I've been hearing tons of in the last few months and have searched all my local bookstores for Veniss Underground with no luck whatsoever. That and The Light Ages by Ian MacLeod are at the top of the list in my

Both are absolute great reads, and great authors, Macleod's sequel to The Light Ages will be released in a couple of months entitled The House of Storms.

Anyone recommend The Etched City by K.J. Bishop?

Another great writer, who although defintely is inspired by the same sources as a Mieville, the "New Wave" inspired by Michael Moorcock, They really aren't similar at all. Right now with the new popularity of this branches authors that include people like Bishop, Mieville, Rossi, VanderMeer, Stewart, M. John Harrison, Rhys Hughes, etc, alot of different sites are rushinging to categorize them, and find it east to attach it tthe nebst known, which arguably is Mieville. this entire "wave" is really absed on being different, and getting away from simialrities, and rehashes of works by Tolkien and Leiber that really make up 3/4 of the genre.

One way to look at is, when reading Mieville, his style and prose are absolutely different from anyone I have ever read, the same can be said about all of the above authors. IMHO these are the authors that are pushing the boundaries of the genre, and not settling for modified redux's, and although they make up a small percentage of the authors in the genre, I think this is where most of the talent resides.

A couple of great reads:

A New History of Universal Infamy by Rhys Hughes
Things that Never Were by Mathhew Rossi

[Reave the Just]

Warmark Jay

Yep, you're onto a good'un with Erikson - great stuff. And he just keeps getting better!!!

Can't believe I have to wait till Feb 06 now till the next book - Booooooo

[Reave the Just]

that's in the U.K. at any rate (Book 6 The Bonehunters). Dunno where the U.S. is up to.

[Ainulindale]

that's in the U.K. at any rate (Book 6 The Bonehunters). Dunno where the U.S. is up to.

I could be mistaken but I think they just got or are about to get Deadhouse Gates.

[Warmark Jay]

I could be mistaken but I think they just got or are about to get Deadhouse Gates.

I believe that was just released here in the States; we're lagging behind with Erikson (so, Ainulindale, when I said in your other post that he should be considered for a World Fantasy Award, I'm assuming that he's had a Malazan novel published last year that we haven't received, and that based on his acclaim it should be considered. I have that much faith in his ability).

would agree with that comment about post-SRD fantasy, pickings are very, very slim. Too many Terry Brooks, Robert Jordans, David Eddings, so forth and so on...

When I'm referring to the hype surrounding Ms. Clarke, I simply don't see that book as the greatest English fantasy novel of the past 70 years (or however Neil Gaiman phrased it). I'll repeat; it's good, I'd go so far as to call it "clever", but IMHO it doesn't merit such adulation.

[Warmark Jay]

Oh, and since I've never read anything by the subject of this post, what's a good "starter" Mieville book?

[Roland of Gilead]

I'm reading Deadhouse Gates right now, just out in the States. I think it's a vast improvement over Gardens of the Moon, at least so far, the first hundred pages. I'm finding some of the characters more likable, and the plot much easier to follow. Whether this is due to already having a familiarity with the world, or Erikson's prose has improved, I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to believe the latter, since this story takes place in a completely different part of Erikson's complex and detailed world.

I still don't think I'm going to rank Erikson on the level of say, Martin, but he's no Tolkien retread, either. So it's an enjoyable epic fantasy read, provided you aren't looking for something in the vein of Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms.

[Ainulindale]

Oh, and since I've never read anything by the subject of this post, what's a good "starter" Mieville book?

If your desiring to get into Mieville I would go straight to his Bas-lag novels which in order are:

Perdido Street Station
The Scar
Iron Council

They can be read standalone but I recomend reading them in order in regards to minor instances of things being mentioned, particularly in Iron Council. The first 2 are nothing less than masteripieces of specualtive fiction IMHO, and Iron Council is not quite as good IMHO, but still exceptioanl compared to the rest of the field. The Scar has one of my favorite characters in fantasy Uther Doul, who is just ill.

Mieville also wrote before the Bas-lag novels a book entitled King Rat which is a spin on the Pied Piper of Hamlin tale. It's a decent read, and you catch glimpses of the genius you will see in hsi Bas-lag novel In regards to his prose, but I ould recommend going straight to the Bas-lag novels and if you like them fill out your collection with King Rat later. Another impressive work by him is a short story entitled The Tane.

The only other novel he has written is a non-genre regarding economics (which I just got, and set me back a few bills too).

In regards to future works, from interviews I have read my understanding is hsi next two novels will be something new, before he returns to Bas-lag.

He is also releasing a collection by HP Lovecraft later this year, I don't think a date has been specified yet.

I still don't think I'm going to rank Erikson on the level of say, Martin, but he's no Tolkien retread, either. So it's an enjoyable epic fantasy read, provided you aren't looking for something in the vein of Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms.

I like that summary, and would add that not only is it an epic, in many ways it's a great melding of the epic and sword/sorcery branches as it should be IMHO.

[Warmark Jay]

Ainulindale, thanks for the suggestions. And despite my nitpicking, I'd still recommend Clarke!

The one thing I require of my fantasy, beyond good writing, characters, etc.., is originality. The list of those fantasy writers with true creative vision is very small, in my opinion.

K Soc, agree with you 100%. It's sad that there are so few fantasy authors writing for grown-ups.

[Dragonlily]

Thanks mostly to Ken's comments in the General Sci Fi Reading thread, I bought PERDIDO STREET STATION as a starter Mieville. Then I found this thread. Will get back here later. I am free to take on some major reading projects of my own choice now.

[duchess of malfi]

Ainulindale, thanks for the suggestions. And despite my nitpicking, I'd still recommend Clarke!

The one thing I require of my fantasy, beyond good writing, characters, etc.., is originality. The list of those fantasy writers with true creative vision is very small, in my opinion.

K Soc, agree with you 100%. It's sad that there are so few fantasy authors writing for grown-ups.

Actually, some of the best and original fantasy I've read in the last couple of years comes from the Young Adult section. I would rather reread Garth Nix's Abhorsen trilogy, Lian Hearn's Tales of the Otori trilogy, or Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy over such writers as Goodkind, Jordan, and Brooks any day of the week.

I haven't tried Meiville yet, but from this thread I definately should.

[Warmark Jay]

Actually, some of the best and original fantasy I've read in the last couple of years comes from the Young Adult section. I would rather reread Garth Nix's Abhorsen trilogy, Lian Hearn's Tales of the Otori trilogy, or Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy over such writers as Goodkind, Jordan, and Brooks any day of the week.

I'm surprised Hearn showed up in the Young Adults.

Spoiler

There's reference to an attempted rape, as well as homosexual encounters.

I've only seen the Otori books in the regular Sci-fi/Fantasy sections of B & N, etc. And by "grown-up", I'd say that it's not the age group that the writer is targeting, but the maturity and sophistication of the writer that makes a book worthy of an adult's time. In other words, I agree with you - there's more depth in one "Harry Potter" book than in all of the Shannara books combined.

[Ainulindale]

I wouldn't say their are few authors writing for grown ups, as much as two other things. One, they are jsut not as advertsied as much as say a Wziazards of the Coast novel, or Brooks etc, and 2 if grownup readers what grownup books they have to realize some cliches aspects they like are not going to be in such books, and not skip them on the shelves. I have found the majority of fantasy authors who do write material from older audiences aren't going to have the cliche aspects such as quest, dragons, good vs. evil. Here is a list of authors who are writing damn good novels older audiences can appreeciate IMHO:

China Mievlle
Matthew Rossii
Sean Stewart
Jeff VandeMeer
KJ Bishop
Michael Moorcock
George R.R. Martin
Rhys Hughes
Charles de Lint
Neil Gaiman
Susanna Clark
Richard Morgan
Tim Powers
M. John Harrison
Neal Stephenson
Ian Macleod
Lois Mcmaster Bujold
Zoran Zivkovic
John Wright
Dan Simmons
R. Scott Bakker
Jeffrey Ford
Steph Swainston

I think the problem, with very few exceptions are you going to find an fantasy novel for adults that have the elements that make the juvenile lines go. A potential author who wants to write a fantasy novel for an older audience is not going to write a Terry Brooks Shannara novel with adult themes, it's an oxymoron, but I think that's what people expect. IMHO The authors above are some of the best in fiction, and only a couple go down the epic fantasy path (Martin, Bakker).

[Ken Socrates]

Alright.

I've reached the chapters in The Scar that deal with the anophelli women....even the Slake Moths weren't this disturbing.

I'm hard pressed to come up with a more fully-realized, utterly creepy race/character in any book I've read recently.

Beautifully disgusting stuff.

[Dragonlily]

Hm. I picked up THE SCAR last time I was in Powell's. Looks like I have some inventive writing to look forward to.

Now if I didn't have three other series already started ... or 4 if you count RUNES of the TCTC series. I'm more than half way through RUNES. It's hard to put down, but reality keeps requiring that I do so.