Loric Demondim Vile question for you folks

[High Lord Tolkien]

Can someone recap the Loric Vile Demondim timeline for me?
Or correct me if I'm wrong.

Loric used the Krill to silence (defeat? Sterilize?) the Viles.
The Viles were living creatures cable of reproducing according to the Law but Loric, using the Krill gave them all an Earthpower vasectomy?


(hey, I wrote that as a joke but it makes sense since they went on to create artificial beings!)
I don't have LFB in front of me but I seem to remember the Viles being "noble"? but then were corrupted by a Raver?.
In Runes it seems like the Viles are being described as 100% shadow ghost-like creatures.
The Demondim are like a blend between shadow and physical beings.
And the Ur-Viles are 100% physical.
This wasn't how I imagined them from the scant info we were given before.
I kind of liked imagining the Viles as a noble anti-earthpowerful Lord-like beings, (even if I made that up in my head over 20 years ago)

So why are people putting such weight on the Krill being used effectivly against the Demondim?
Did it ever say in the books that the Krill was used against Demondim?
I don't remember it ever being mentioned.

I welcome your thoughts.

[ScrapOSamadhi]

I think this is a very good topic to explore, but I suspect SRD has tweaked and expanded upon it somewhat from what was given in the first and second chronicles.

We have basically three "generations" of creatures.

1. Viles, described in Runes as being non-corporeal
2. Demondim, their artificial creations described as being animate dead.
3. and Ur-Viles (and Waynhim) as being fully corporeal but artificial.

In TIW Elena describes the history of the Krill of Loric as:

With this he slew the Demondim guise of moksha Raver, and delivered the Land from the first great peril of the Ur-Viles.

Morham gives a token of truth to the Forestal by stating:

He is moksha Raver ... he and turiya his brother taught the despising of trees to the one friendly Demondim.

In LFB Atiarian describes the time of Berek before the war as:

It was a time when the Viles who sired the Demondim were a high and lofty race.

Stave gave several "possible" origins for the original Viles:
1. They arose from ancient banes buried within Mount Thunder.
2. They were spectres or ghouls from those who had fallen victim to Corruption.
3. They were fragments of the One Forest's lost soul.

So, let's start working out a timeline (at least an order of events) which others can add to/insert, etc.

1. Viles came about, maybe from the One Forest's lost soul. (Runes 223).
2. To men they would appear quite vengeful and could be easily labelled evil. I can't sync this with "Viles were a high and lofty race." This would be around the time before Berek's war with the Grey Slayer.
3. Viles created the Demondim (Runes 224).
4. The two Ravers taught the despising of trees to the once friendly Demondim (Runes 224).
5. Loric enlisted the help of the Demondim to stem the harm of the Viles who created them (Runes 224).
6. Loric slew the Demondim guise of moksha Raver.
7. The Demondim labored to make Ur-Viles and Waynhim (during Kevin's reign while Foul was on the council).
8. The Ritual of Desecration marked the end of the Demondim. Both the Ur-Viles and the Waynhim were diminished.

The Bloodguard came AFTER the Viles, but knew the Demondim by direct experience.

While Foul was on the council in a friendly guise the Demondim labored in secret to make Ur-Viles and Waynhim.

One other thing can be inferred from the destruction of the Demondim and the decline of the Ur-Viles and Waynhim. Lord Foul must have had a hand in them/their lore as the ritual undid his works.

[dlbpharmd]

Nice work on the timeline, Scrap. Makes perfect sense to me.

[Kevin son of Ireland]

yes scrap, you must be commended for a nice piece of work, very helpful and intrigueing. We must learn more, any new insights into this would be very interesting. I feel the Demondim and the other races that we know of from The Lands past will play a very big part in this last chronicles.

[ScrapOSamadhi]

Thanks for your kudos.

I just noticed in re-reading an inconsistency in the account (it appears to be in the books and not in my recounting though).

Loric used the Krill to stem the first great harm of the Ur-Viles (notice the Ur), but the Ur-Viles weren't created until later (during Kevin's High Lordship). The books are clear on that. Perhaps SRD meant to have Elena say Viles (since he was Vilesilencer).

Of course this assumes Loric wasn't still around when Kevin was High Lord. Maybe he stepped down.

[ScrapOSamadhi]

From TIW, Lord Morham recounting the Ravers to Covenant:

It was turiya and moksha, Herem and Jehannum, who lured the powerful and austere Demondim to their breeding dens, and to the spawning of the ur-viles.

BTW: The definition of austere is:

[adj] practicing great self-denial; "Be systematically ascetic...do...something for no other reason than that you would rather not do it"- William James; "a desert nomad's austere life"; "a spartan diet"; "a spartan existence"
[adj] of a stern or strict bearing or demeanor; forbidding in aspect; "an austere expression"; "a stern face"
[adj] severely simple; "a stark interior"

[Guest]

I am hoping the story of the Viles and Demondim will be one of those "prequel" issues that will show up as a big part of the Last Chronicles.

[Borillar]

It's interesting that in LFB, it is said that the Viles were once a "high and lofty race". Yet in Runes, there is no mention (I don't think) of any positive history in the Viles. The Demondim, on the other hand, seem to be described as "once friendly" in both Runes and in the 1st Chronicles, before they were turned against the Forest by the Ravers.

[drew]

We learn most about the Demondim in the 1st from the old Lords, as well as Atiaran..well no offence to them, but all they had to go by, was the 1st ward of Kevins Lore, and they barely finished it!-not to mention that Atiaran flunked out of the Lorestat.
And now our knowledge of the Demondim come from Haruchai legends that came from third party stories!
The only person I trust to tell TRUE stories of the past is Anele, since he can read mountians...and possibly Covenant-now that he's the Arch of time..but of course we don't even know if we can trust HIM now!

[MrKABC]

Scrap, that was a great summation! Good job!

The only thing that doesn't jibe is:

What exactly was the krill created for?

And why was Loric called Vilesilencer if they were already destroyed by the Demondim?

Gaffe by SRD? Or am I not understanding this correctly? Also, I seem to remember a line in TWL where Covenant was explaining the krill had been formed to counter the "peril of Vain's ancestors"...

[drew]

Loric Demondimsilencer sounds stupid!
Even Loric Vile-spawnsilencer doesn't have the ring to it.

I'm thinking that in Berek and Loric and Damelons days, there were both. Creators and creation-hell maybe the demondim were nice for a time, then Loric SILENCED the viles, but it took the Desecration to beat the demondim

[Jerico]

Yes it has always been a timeline nightmare for SRD. In LFB Atiaran tells TC that "It was Loric Vilesilencer who stemmed the corruption of the Demondim rendering them impotent"
Well if they were rendered impotent why did Kevin have such a hard time with them? Or does it mean that they were unable to reproduce?
In ROTE he makes it sound like the teaching of despite by the Ravers was the reason for the 'impotency' of the Demondim.
Then Loric slew the guise of a Raver in the Demondim and that halted the first great peril of the Ur-viles? Well as was mentioned, the timeline does not fit, unless SRD knows something we don't? I hope he will clear it up.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Yes it has always been a timeline nightmare for SRD. In LFB Atiaran tells TC that "It was Loric Vilesilencer who stemmed the corruption of the Demondim rendering them impotent"
Well if they were rendered impotent why did Kevin have such a hard time with them? Or does it mean that they were unable to reproduce?
In ROTE he makes it sound like the teaching of despite by the Ravers was the reason for the 'impotency' of the Demondim.
Then Loric slew the guise of a Raver in the Demondim and that halted the first great peril of the Ur-viles? Well as was mentioned, the timeline does not fit, unless SRD knows something we don't? I hope he will clear it up.

Well, SRD is playing around with the Arch these days.
We have time lost Demondim and ur-Viles, add a ceasure here or there and it will all make sense.

[Encryptic]

Yes it has always been a timeline nightmare for SRD. In LFB Atiaran tells TC that "It was Loric Vilesilencer who stemmed the corruption of the Demondim rendering them impotent"
Well if they were rendered impotent why did Kevin have such a hard time with them? Or does it mean that they were unable to reproduce?
In ROTE he makes it sound like the teaching of despite by the Ravers was the reason for the 'impotency' of the Demondim.
Then Loric slew the guise of a Raver in the Demondim and that halted the first great peril of the Ur-viles? Well as was mentioned, the timeline does not fit, unless SRD knows something we don't? I hope he will clear it up.

I'm just waiting for someone from our world to show up in the Land and restore the potency of the Demondim.

"It was Pfizer Viagrabringer who restored the erection of the Demondim, rendering them potent."

[Aleksandr]

In LFB Atiaran tells TC that "It was Loric Vilesilencer who stemmed the corruption of the Demondim rendering them impotent"
Well if they were rendered impotent why did Kevin have such a hard time with them? Or does it mean that they were unable to reproduce?

The Demondim are apparently spirits (the Viles?) who animate dead flesh. Perhaps Loric put a stop to their ability to create new zombie-selves in this fashion, in effect "silencing" the Viles by stopping them becoming incarnate. So then they (tutored by the Raver) turned to creating bodies by lore: the Ur-Viles. So maybe Loric also had to deal with that threat too, getting rid of the Raver? And meanwhile both Demondim and Ur-Viles were both still around in Kevin’s day and helping Foul out.

[Jerico]

The way the books make it sound all of them the Viles, Demondim, and Ur-viles are created by Lore. In the breeding dens under Mt. thunder. So the use of 'rendering them impotent' makes no sense in the regular use of the word. It's almost like SRD ment it as 'rendering them useless'. Which wold mean
They are still a threat. I mean if the Demondim in ROTE are useless then what were they like when they could kick butt and these are the same ones that Kevin faced.
So unless it just refers to Loric killing the one which was held by a Raver?

[Dawngreeter]

Well, SRD is playing around with the Arch these days.
We have time lost Demondim and ur-Viles, add a ceasure here or there and it will all make sense.

True. I love that. Now that time has been messed with anything could be explained.