Treading Water in the New Millenium

[Skeletal Grace]

OK...

So finally I got to lay my hands on the first book of the Last Chronicles of one of literature's most unusual heroes... God knows I have been waiting.

When I read the First Chronicles I was blown away. I remember feeling like I did when I read Tolkien for the first time. Not because the content was similar, or because they share the same writing style, but because it just entranced me the same way. Fantastic landscapes, imaginative plots and terrific creatures - all seen through the eyes of a diseased, selfish and introvert anti-Hero with no interest in "saving the world".

The Second Chronicles were even better. The story had expanded and we finally got to meet the loveable Giants and follow the inner plight of the Haruchai. The Sunbane was an excellent symptom of the evil that had befallen the Land. I loved how Stephen Donaldson defiled his wonderful creation from the first books to make the reader even more involved in its ultimate fate in the second books.

So here we are...

Third Chronicles...

And I'm not impressed...

The problems are many and the higlights few.

The Land has been afflicted with a disease of the highest order. A disease EVERY single race and character suffers from in this book:

Guilt.

"We are not worthy."

"It was our fault."

"The shame."

The crying of all these spineless people made me want to tear my hair out.

Linden is forever unworthy because of her personal history, Anele is unworthy because he lost the Staff of Law, the Haruchai are unworthy because of how they failed to serve the Land and thus has taken up a twisted form of total service by implementing the use of tyranny. The Ra men are not worthy because they hid in the hills instead of fighting the good fight. The Stonedownors are unworthy because they have been kept in the dark. The Waynhim are unworthy because they are Waynhim and so on... Everybody also feels everybody else is unworthy so there's no encouraging pep-talk going on. Everywhere you turn they are all wallowing in self-pity and guilt and shame... Only makes for so much varied reading as far as character development goes. "Oh here's another one. Let's see what his plight is.. Oh, what do you know... Self-blame and anscestral shame." Well, snap out of it.

Another thing that bothered me with this book that despite its number of pages nothing really happened. Linden's kid gets stolen, she goes to the Land, finds the Staff of Law and ends up in Revelstone. That could have been a nice first ten chapters. A whole book? C'mon... I can only take so much of Linden groaning. My wife read the book as well and her comment was "This woman needs to be smacked with a big salami."

I'm from New York. I know we have a reputation to be tough but I would assume that these Stonedownors, Haruchai and Ra men would have us beaten right?

Yet everybody puts up with Linden's "struggling silence". On every page she is taking her damn time answering questions, while fighting some emotional battle with herself over some stupid crap noone but her cares about:

"Oh, Chosen! The big ass tornado of evil is heading this way, loaded with vile creatures. What are we going to do?"

Linden groaned. How could she give these poor people an answer when all she wanted was to howl in despair! It doesn't matter! The Masters have deceived you! He has my son! Foul will win. No, it was all futile. She made a point of taking another treasure berry and slowly putting it in her mouth, feeling the juices slowly rejuvenating her battered body, while the Stonedownor and the Ra men were bristling with ill concealed impatience. You could see the hairs on the knuckles of the closest Demondim charging towards them now.

"Chosen! We must flee!"

Linden groaned again. She had the White Gold. Covenant's ring. It was hers by right now, he had given it to her to heal the land. She closed her hand over it, feeling its double-edged warmth against her skin underneath her shirt. No... It was wrong. That was what Foul wanted her to do. Just like her father had wanted her to witness his ultimate demise in that attic so many years ago, so did Foul wish for her to observe the undoing of the Arch of Time, all by her hand. She had so much blood on her hands already. She could not help these people. She started rocking back and forth, engulfed by emotional torrents.

The first Demondim crashed into them, ripping limbs of screaming Ra-men, clawing faces into minced meat.

"Linden Avery. We must depart." said the Manethrall stoically, now bleeding from multiple gashing wounds. He was still all pumped for battle, almost urging Linden to get to her feet and make a stand. The silent plea in his eyes spoke to her more plainly than any words ever could. Oh, Covenant. If only you were here. Don't you understand? she wanted to shout to the Manethrall, he has my son!

See what I mean? This was of course all a fictitious event that didn't take place, but to me it represents what the whole book was about. Just endless emotional inner turmoil at the expense of everybody else.

You just pray for Angus Thermopyle to rip open the fabric of time and space and step through the Gap, striking Linden with a crashing blow and screaming in her face" What the hell is wrong with you? People are dying and you're playing the goddamn pity violin? Nobody gives a shit about your inner demons honey so either start killing these goddamn bastards or friggin' run! Get your gay ass off the ground and put that ring to some good use. If Foul can't take a joke, screw him!"

If I see "Linden groaned" one more time...

Third... Stephen R Donaldson's vocabulary is of course most impressive. You have to admire a man who can properly implement such tongue twisting words as "puissant", "preternatural" and "percipience" (what? - so he got to the P's in the dictionary). Unusual as these words are, I sometimes get a kick out of seeing them used in proper English. It gets a little too much though when said words become the story.

With such an extensive vocabulary maybe Mr. Donaldson could have varied the formications and puissances a little? Isn't THAT one trademark of a great writer?

Also... On the same subject I find the overuse of "elegant" words quite disturbing at times. I'd like to think I am fairly well versed in the English language and yet I find myself not even getting the context of certain sentences because of words I have just never encountered before. That takes away from the flow of the story. If I have to look up a word I have never even heard before, it means I am taking my eyes off the pages the writer intended me to read, UNLESS the meaning of the word is unveiled through the rest of the sentence or paragraph. No such luck with this book. Endless paragraphs of extremely fancy words totally killed this book for me.

I just recently re-read the Gap-series and I can't remember flinching at even one word throughout that whole saga. Is it that Mr. Donaldson nowadays feels "ashamed" of being a Fantasy writer and thus over-implements a multitude of floral words moreoften found in "serious fiction"? Is it for himself or for his reader he writes? If it's for himself, then of course... he can do whatever he pleases. If he's writing for the reader, he's losing them by using a language that rather scares people off than sucks them in. Your vocabulary only means so much if you're the only one appreciating it.

Maybe these books will pick up, but right now the story is treading water. This was an utterly pointless reading experience and remember... I do count the Chronicles of Covenant to be my all time favorite book series along with the Gap-series.

There's no shame in writing Fantasy Mr. Donaldson. Come off your high horses and join us mortals so we can enjoy your fantastically imaginative mind working for the story instead of against it.

/

Skeletal Grace
Your biggest fan (like everyone else in here)

[dlbpharmd]

Ah, another Linden hater! Welcome to the Watch!

[lurch]

Your Grace..Every point you have brought up has been discussed,,well, before I started posting here..and I am a relative newbee.
...If you hadn't stated you are from New York,,I, at least, would have assumed it. Yes,,all is guilt,,a) don't forget , guilt is the great motivator,,b)Runes is as if ,,things are inside out of what has been possibly expected , since the presidence of the first two Chons...TC,,was the one with all the guilt..now,,every one of the Land( except possibly the Ranyhyn,,or maybe not)..is of guilt. TC was the saviour of the land, Berek halfhand re-incarnate,,whereas, Linden in Runes,,is the bringer of DOOM..she WILL sacrifice the Land for her son!!
...Its been discussed ,,about SRD having the main protagonist a female. Some of feel he has done an admiral, believable job of it. Again, just the fact of a female protagonist is how much opposite of the first two Chrons? Others have not been able to suspend the disbelief for a female protagonist quite so easily. I've recently said,,in comparison..TC, weighted by his disbelief,,trudges around the Land,,heavy handed in non-weilding of gold ring,,,while, Linden,,in Runes at least,,is like on a high wire act..where every movement,,every step,,has to be thought out,,and carefully executed. Why?..because she has no friends or followers..Runes has her, carefully making decisions on fact and faith , with good intentions,,and slowly, one at a time ,,gathering support. She literally is taking risks into the unknown( caesures,,the ride to earthblood fountain ,The Horse Ritual,by the Ranyhyn,,etc,,etc,,) all on good faith. And she gets positively rewarded with each risk. Perhaps SRD is making comment about out look on life in general....Linden doesn't understand what has become of the Land anymore than we do. I have suggested,,perhaps,,the character Linden and the reader,,are one and the same ,,from SRD's perspective.
...Concerning,,words used more than once,,oh well,,Its been pointed out,,that seems to be a trait of being in the realm of Land..The real life chapters,,just aren't populated with the ancient and obtuse verbage. Alls I can say,,is deal with it.
...Some things to possibly occupy your doubting thoughts,,consider, Time as a character..that runes Is the first,,therefore much is set up, and foundation making,, that " Lord Foul Has My Son",,could be the cry of any Parent of a teenager in this modern world of ours( actually, i think the lament is universal,,and ageless)...and if you can't identify with Linden,,then who can you identify with,,?,,and take note of the changes that character goes thru..Again,,rather than TC going thru all the changes,,its not Linden so much going thru the changes , but all the characters around her....There is a similar " play" in the history of literature,,and it to involves and revolves around a female protagonist, I refer to Flaubert's " Madame Bovery(spelling?). Apon that comment,,I reserve much more comment until well into the 3rd or 4th book of this series.
...My favorite metaphor on much that you have brought up is this: At first assumption, Linden thought the Demondim were attacking her. Later, she realized, that they were " herding " her..SRD, is doing the same...relax and enjoy....MEL

[danlo]

I think that recreating anything that even comes close to the first two Chronicles--after a twenty year hiatus--is an unbelievably admirable job. I agree with many off lurches points and feel that Runes was a very good "set up" book. Hang in there and I bet you anything you'll be completely blown away by the end of The Final Chrons. ( then again I'm one of the small camp that actually likes Linden)

[Reisheiruhime]

Kill Linden! Mwahahaha.... With such useless heroes, it's no wonder that y'all can't kill Lord Foul.

All the "groaning" grated on my nerves a bit as well. I wanted to slap her, several times. Or maybe go "Resident Evil 2" on her.

[lurch]

...Lindens Goaning...seems like more than a few have expressed an unlike to all of it. ..oh well..TC used the phrase, " hellfire!" everytime he felt Lord Vice Grips squeezeing him into a decision he didn't want to make. ..or at least a rough proximity thereof. Every time Linded groans,,I can hear Linden say under her breath,,son of a female dog. There is a ..
knowledge,,a rememberance of things past, thus a fortelling of the future in her acquiessent groans. Her groans are like " short cuts". She is remembering the costs from long ago,,Can the reader make the same leaps in Time Span?..
...If one can " hear" the written word..as in.." groan",,and also hear the character " groan'..it just seems to me , with each passing groan from Linden..the groan becomes abit deeper, fuller,,expressive. With each groan,,she becomes abit more more knowledgable of what has become of the Land and its people,,and what may be required to get it rite and ...get her son back, without destroying all of it...if that is possible. There is emotional expression without being specific, in all those groans. In the Land,,Everything Is Of Heightened Status....except Lindens calm cool analytical perspective..She does swear everynow and then..but she is allowed only to groan when being aware of the situation and costs. Perhaps, her internalization is just an element ,,that some screwed up socio path, nut case..is counting on,,to use for his final "liberation"...MEL

[Skeletal Grace]

Thanks for the welcome.

I realize of course that this subject may have been beaten to death over the past few months and I just figured instead of making random observations in 30 different threads I'd compile them in the War & Peace post above instead.

Lurch... I have no problem with the main character being a female per se, I have a problem with Linden Avery. I think we gave her all the room she needed for her little emotional inner civil war in the second chronicles. At least in those books there were exciting distractions to hold our interest, such as an actually interesting story and diverse characters. Now it's like watching Dr. Phil in Never Neverland.

I have just had it up to here with her issues. She's like the epitomized stereotype of the helpless woman, disabled by her emotions, unable to actively fight against the brute force of the opressor. In a way she's weaker than Morn with a zone implant. That's quite frankly crap. Most women I know would say "Suck this, Foul" and blast him from the sky with a bolt of white lightning if he stole their kid and they had the means to face him. That would be a healthy parental reaction. (Unless you live in Florida where nobody gives a rat's ass about their kids of course.)

And Linden's groaning is friggin' annoying. "Hellfire" was Thomas Covenant saying "f---"... If you want to chalk Linden's groaning up to a character's unique expression of aggravation or frustration, it could just as well be excluded altogether since we have a pretty clear picture of exactly what kind of mental basket case she is. More issues than a magazine rack and counting...

If Donaldson was to kill off Linden in the next book I would dance a friggin' jig. If she's going to cry her way through these books I don't think I will be able to stand it. Grow some hair on your balls, Linden! You are supposedly a world-savior. ("Oh no! I'm not worthy!" - Smack! - "Shut up and fight!")

One thing I didn't write about was something I am sure also has been discussed already but might be worth pointing out again... All the other books have that fresh sense of novelty to them. We meet new grounds, new characters, new races and new phenomena... I don't get that feeling with the Runes. There is nothing there to dazzle me, astound me or grieve me. There is "Kevin's Dirt". OK... LA has smog too, disabling your natural health sense. Doesn't make it interesting...

I felt like the whole book was like a summary of the past for whatever fool start with this one without any prior knowledge of the previous chronicles. Do we really need a frame by frame recap? We were there. We read them already. I know about the alliantha, the hurtloam, the Ranhyn and the Haruchai already. Gimme some good stuff!

I don't feel the connection to the Land I did when I first read the two other chronicles. This time around the Land feels a bit watered down, Swedish almost. Like I could care less whether the place burns to cinders or not. Intentional? We'll see...

The characters are also unusually bland to the point where I don't "feel" them. In the other chronicles there was almost no need for "... said Saltheart Foamfollower" because by the WAY they talked you could identify the character delivering the line. Here they all bleed together to a drab average Land Dweller.

As for the lament of parents everywhere... If someone stole my daughter I would tear down the Arch of Time in a heartbeat, no matter how many millions of innocent died. Don't fxxk with my blood. That is another reason I don't identify with Linden. I could care less about the Land if it came to the safety of my kid, and if my "inner demons" had a problem with that they could join the rest of the Land's people in a big White Golden Caamora. Happy trails, see you in hell.

I am siding with Foul any minute now. (Which might be what SRD is out to acheive considering how he has switched hero/villain roles between main characters before.)

Anyway...

Please note that I am just basing my thoughts on this one book. I'm sure once the whole quadrology is done I will be playing a different tune altogether. I am sure Donaldson has worked out a great story populated with fantastic and memorable characters, and just hasn't found his groove yet.

Far would it be from me to pretend to know what's going on in his mind.

PS. Gustave Flaubert sucked ass.

[mod edit - watch the language please]

[firelion]

I totally agree with the point about Runes lacking a "sense of novelty".SRD has said that the writing the last crons will require more from him as a writer than anything else he has ever done.I certainly hope he has not spent twenty years complicating his mind with things he would have liked to done the first two go arounds,second guessing and criticising his own creation, and completely losing sight of what people liked about the first two series to start with(ala George Lucus).Episodes I II and III of Starwars were way more expensive,and took way more people to make than the original trilogy-but IMHO pale in comparison because of lack of character developement and a diminished sense of imagination.There have been lots of things be it T.V. shows,movies,books,and music groups that have been ruined by losing sight of what made people care to take time out of their day to enjoy it to start with-noble from the standpoint of trying to be creative-but more often than not these mistakes come from self conciousness of ones own creation,trying to anticipate a trend,boredom-and sometimes you just can't figure out why the boats been rocked.In other words by saying that writing the last crons will tax his talent more than anything he has ever done is he saying that he feels his previous works are inferior and he is out to prove he can do better?If this is what he thinks SRD is far off base,I hope he takes the reighns off his imagination for the rest of the series,quits worrying so much about his writing style and gives us a big dose of WOW!Anybody who can write two stories so different-set in the same world-with the same main characters, the same antagonist well is a genius!And I don't want to criticise too much, i'm just a little concerned.

[yoursovain]

What a feisty poster you are mr Grace! Worthy of old tremendous crankypants Thomas Covenant! One thing though, all this damn the land and fireball the bastards to kid your kid back...this is something TC never would have done - in fact in both of the earlier chrons the fact that he precisely avoided doing this saved the land and redeemed him. Your desire for direct action reminds me a little of big hearted but blind Hile Troy - a miltitary man after all - still even he loved the land and ended up caring for its trees and sacrificing himself. Also, I suspect having Foul likely escape the arch of time with all this powermongering would make getting back your kid a short and meaningless victory as mr soulcrusher is let loose on the universe!

One other thing Mr Grace - suggesting Linden grows hair on her balls doesn't exactly further your claim that you are fine and dandy with female lead characters

[yoursovain]

Firelion - shame on you for even comparing the terrible piles of cultural garbage that are the last two star wars episodes!

Still, I understand the whole trying too hard problem of writing sequels to masterpieces - it is horribly common and Runes is a little on the stiff side - not so much b/c of Linden but b/c of the set up factor. As many have said here - if the rest of the books in these last chrons prove as ambitious as SRD claims, then no one will even notice the set up issues in Runes.

[Variol Farseer]

An observation from someone who's been through the grind of producing a 300,000-word book:

The first two Chronicles were typewritten. Runes was done on a word processor, and it shows. The physical act of writing is so much easier now that writers feel free to sling all kinds of verbiage they would never have let themselves get away with in the old days. (And a lot of hopeless hacks who would never have finished a book are cluttering up slushpiles, but that's another story.) There's a lot less searching for exactly the right word, a lot less pausing to think, a lot more times when, as SRD himself once put it, 'the writer simply stands back and throws words at his subject until some of them stick'.

Now, word processors also make the physical task of revising a lot easier; but they make the mental task more difficult. On a typewriter, you have to retype the whole manuscript, page by page, to do a major rewrite. On a computer, you only fiddle with the bits that leap to the eye. But the real work of editing, I find, is often done while the fingers are busy retyping. At every moment, you're thinking, 'Is this word really necessary? Could I put this more shortly, more pithily? Could I make this more entertaining, and if not, couldn't I just skip it and save myself this awful drudgery?' Great things can come of this process; but word processing short-circuits it.

My overwhelming impression of Runes is that it is not tight. SRD's use of five-dollar words in the first two Chronicles was sometimes annoying and often confusing, but his writing had a flavour that the latest book doesn't quite recapture. When I look at them side by side, I see that Runes uses whole phrases and sentences to fumble towards a mood that would once have been cramped into a single word. Granted, the word was probably 'telic' or 'clench' or 'roynish' or 'unhermeneuticable'. But what SRD's writing has gained in clarity of outline, it has lost in vividness of colour.

If the first six books were like Impressionist paintings, Runes is like a very detailed black-and-white engraving. I think it could have used less detail and more verve. But it's not a bad book by any means.

[drew]

Personally, I didn't find the whinning that anoying.
TC did it the entire first Chronicles, and we Loved him for it. I personaly think SRD used "Don't touch me" more than he used Formication.
If Linden just blasted Foul out of the sky with her Wild Magic, it wouldn't be much of a story!
The only thig that I found was diferent about RUnes, is that it is not a stand alone story, Most of the other Chrons books are.

[amanibhavam]

Just one question: if your archenemy (and we are speaking about a god or god-like creature) had your child, would you go around blasting the heavens around his neck and risking your child along? And how exactly is Linden supposed to find Foul?

As for the Runes: I do believe that all the whining and hesitation and groping around and quest-for-staff is a preparation for a big screw-up on Linden's site: she thinks she is on the right track, but - knowingly or inadvertently - will commit a blunder or crime comparable to TC raping Lena in TFCoTC, and it will take the rest of the books to rectify things.

[ur-bane]

Maybe we'll see Linden vs. Joan in an Uma Thurman/Darryl Hannah Kill Bill fight.

Sorry...just kidding.

But I do agree with amanibhavam. Linden, even with the best intentions, is going to misunderstand/err/flub/blunder and have a sudden realization toward the end. Then Jeremiah will do his thing.

Runes does appear to be a set-up book.
I do not hold that against SRD at all. After 20 years, he has brought me right back into the Land that I love. Much has changed, but I was pulled right back in.

[Skeletal Grace]

You all make valid points.

"Don't touch me!" was an extension of TC's very soul and a symbol of his outsider's/oucast's perspective on things. I didn't mind him delivering that same line over and over again sincer it rings so true in his case. That was his natural response to the enticement/delusion of health and hope. It made him even more interesting.

Covenant's whining derived from an impervious nature whereas Linden's derived from a hyper-sensitive nature. I'd take the cold callous nature of TC over Linden's hysterical emotions any day.

- - -

I see that Runes uses whole phrases and sentences to fumble towards a mood that would once have been cramped into a single word. Granted, the word was probably 'telic' or 'clench' or 'roynish' or 'unhermeneuticable'. But what SRD's writing has gained in clarity of outline, it has lost in vividness of colour.

Exactly. One of the reasons I always loved Donaldson's writing was because of how he made his characters come alive with distinguishing features and clever personalities. And even though he has been known to occasionally even then use words like you mentioned to describe a situation, character or a mood, its meaning was all crystal clear. His writing seems almost detached to me now.

In a way you're right about the editing part. I have a feeling that with an old typewriter you would be more reluctant to rewrite whole pages of manuscripts so what we see in early books is pretty much how it was played out in his mind while writing it. The word processor gives us freedom to instantly change, go back, erase and move and thereby maybe losing the flow of thought.

I do not however blame the uber-eloquence of "Runes" on the word processor. I write myself and I pretty much write everything in one sitting and then scroll back to fix mistakes in spelling and grammar. I very rarely change context or phrasing. It is my guess that most writers work like that, otherwise you would go insane and never get anything done. For every word a writer stops to ponder and change around, "fix up" and make more elegant, every single one of his reader will stop at the same place as well when reading it. It's all in the flow...

I just have a feeling that he doesn't himself feel the Land like he used to and therefore has concentrated more on creating the perfect sentence than creating the perfect story. It will come, I'm sure...

- - -

Linden should grow hair on her balls. It's an expression that means she needs to toughen up. Not necessarily a male quality, even though the graphics of the saying suggests it.

As for the White Gold blasting a hole in the sky and all that. All I am saying is that there seems to be a whole lot of soul searching going on and not enough resolve (She's too emotionally roynish and not balls-to-the wall telic enough - HAHA).
My comment about tearing down the AOT was referring to how Lurch said I should identify with Linden losing her kid instead of pointing a finger at her crying game. Not so... There's a time for tears and a time for action. (I would probably be too rash to be trusted with White Gold huh?)

amanibhavam... Maybe you are right and her self doubts and nervous breakdowns will lead to a big screw-up on her part. If so, I will rejoice in her misfortune and wait for the Covenant Cavalry to bail her out. It's about friggin' time he put on a big show anyway. I really have had it with Linden you know. One character doesn't make or break an epic book-series, but in "Runes" she's all we got so far, hence my negative comments.

- - -

My problems with this one book still stand:

1. Overly complicated language (Big words for the sake of big words)
2. Linden's emotional battles (Tell your diary all about it when you get home)
3. No novelties (We have seen it all before - it was more of a recap/prologue book than a set-up)
4. No Thomas Covenant


What was good about the book:

1. Excellent cliffhanger (Are they the real deal? Apparitions? What will happen? The drama...)
2. C'mon... It's the Land! (Any way you cut it - It still rocks)
3. Ranhyn comeback (We missed them)
4. Kevin's Watch fell (I like cataclysmic events - sue me)

- - -

I just read that he has 36 months to finish each book in the series. That would mean we have another 9 years ahead of us? That seems to be a bit long. That is something the word processor has sped up. Whatever took 3 years to write on a Royal, should take no more than one year on the comp.

- - -

As for the moderator pointing out my language. I put the edited curse word within quotes to prove a point about characteristic expressions. It was not put there for the sake of offending, but for clarifying. The difference should be clear as daylight. If you were offended maybe I should have clarified in capitals. Beg your pardon though.

- - -

And yeah... I am a grouchy bastard.

[dlbpharmd]

No offense taken. Your meaning was clear, and although you intentionally mispelled the f word we still try to avoid using that word here. Thank you!

[Thaale]

Variol, your remarks are I’m sure in general correct regarding typing vs. word processing. As for Donaldson specifically, I am under the impression that he has always been a classic overwriter. While many writers self-redact their works for tightness, I think much of the trimming of Donaldson’s prior TC books was done at the editorial level. For instance, IIRC the manuscript he submitted for The Illearth War was one and a half times as long as the published work. Del Rey cut the manuscript lavishly (as SRD had known they would have to, given the length constraints he ignored).

I think there’s been a shift (that I’ve noticed particularly in sf / fantasy) over the past generation toward a much lighter editorial hand, which is not always for the better. I attribute the motivation for this to be cost cutting.

BTW, is your book published?

Skeletal, you’re not alone. When you get a chance, browse back over some of the previous threads and you’ll get a sense of the reaction to the book.

Like you, I don’t mind female protagonists in general in the least, whether written by women or by men. But I have never found SRD’s women POV characters to be very believable. There is to me an awkward mix of laboring to make sure that his women characters are “just as good as men,” which shouldn’t mean (but to him I’m afraid does), that they be shown to have exactly the same skill sets as men; and his implicit recognition of the fact that there are of course differences between the sexes, which then comes across in a far too exaggerated form.

Examples of the above would be Terisa’s passivity and deferral to all male authority, Linden’s refusal to act on numerous occasions, and similar behavior by Morn (to be fair to Morn, she has real problems that the other two don’t have).

So on the one hand you have female Lords and soldiers who are apparently equivalent to their male counterparts, but you also have a far more important female character who acts like a misogynistic caricature of an ineffectual women.

As for characterization, I think SRD hit his readers with too many new characters too fast. Only Stave really eventually earns my interest as somebody to care about, because SRD and Linden take the time to show him being won over to her cause. I would like to like Mahrtiir, but he’s been given short shrift so far.

TWL also faced the problem of presenting a whole new supporting cast for the protagonist, but I think it was done more gradually and smoothly there. For one thing, the introduction to Linden began in the real world and was carried over into the Land. In Runes, the reader invested 70+ pages in new real world characters who were then unceremoniously whisked offstage. Kevin’s Watch was a whole new beginning.

Then too, the reader was given time to assimilate Linden before being presented with Sunder, and Sunder had his moment in the spotlight before Hollian was brought onstage.

The character of Hollian herself was never really developed, but at least her addition to the party didn’t actively interfere with Brinn and Cail and Pitchwife and Honninscrave being included. Of course, Covenant and the reader had the experiences of Bannor and Foamfollower to lead them to a quick acceptance of those characters.

But Runes doesn’t really offer this pacing. After the abortive real world start, all the new Land characters are just dumped out in front of the reader abruptly. And Liand of course is a real problem. Far blander than Sunder even, IMO his character was shaped by the tendency that most previous characters who shared a scene with Linden had to automatically win the attention and empathy of the reader. No matter who she was paired with – Covenant, Cail, Pitchwife – Linden seemed like she should be playing backup.

So now we are given Liand, the man with no personality, because only compared to his empty shell can Linden seem like a compelling, sympathetic, believable character. To me, that’s just going from bad to worse.

As you see, a common claim of fans of the book is to point out that it’s only an introduction to the Final Chronicles. While crediting this statement’s obvious truth, I would still maintain that that’s a criticism in itself given its length, the amount of time it took to compose, and the amount of time expected before the next book.

[drew]

I stated erlier that Runes is not a stand alone book, but I don't look to it as an intoduction.
SRD is a different author than he was 30 years ago.But he's trying to write a story that he started 30 yeras ago. But he's also trying to keep himself from being pigeon hole'd.
Do people honestly think that Runes could have been much better?
Is it just because there was no big battle scenes?
Yes, the time in the real world was longer than usual, but quite nessecarry, we had to see what happened to Roger Joan and Jeramiah.
I personally think he did a fine job portreying a female charactor, espesially one named Linden Avery. She's not a figter, so we're learing to see what steps a non-fighter wil have battleing despite.


This book In my opinion is great. I feel that the story is needed, and the writting is supurb, sure we all got sick of hearing the word Formication, but don't you think that's how the people in the ceasure felt too? It grated on them, just like the word grated on us! Linden's whinning didn't bother me anymore tha Covenants whinning, it's just that instead of lashing out at the closest person, she contained it within herself. I mean. Linden's a whinner, that's her thing!!
Of course, everyone is indeed entitled to their own opion, but I'm sure those of you who didn't like the book, would probebly have liked it less, if it were just a rehash of the First Chronicles.

[Thaale]

Right, there are no wrong opinions. Some people just like it a lot more than others did, and that’s fortunate for them and SRD.

For me, lack of battles per se certainly isn’t a problem. I never really cared much for SRD’s (or anyone’s) larger confrontations. The Gap series interested me less and less as the scale of confrontation grew larger and larger.

OTOH, I did think many of SRD’s smaller scale physical confrontations are well written: e.g., the battles against the Raver eels and rats in TOT; the grim attacks in TWL and WGW; and Artagel’s duels with Gart.

I certainly don’t require large or small scale violence. But 500 pages of talking heads is a lot to sit still for, especially when the philosophy of the author is to a certain extent half-baked and too much a product of his self-absorbed generation. But even if you disagree with that slam at aging hippies, you may agree that all talk and no action is not the thing of which great 500 page novels are made.

Action doesn’t have to be a swordfight or a Raver attack. It can be the physical quests and mountain climbing of LFB and TIW. It can be the exploration of new lands and exotic beings of TOT. It can be the chases through the secret passages at Orison.

What it can’t be is Linden spending 500 pages trying to talk Stave into seeing what every reader already knows is obvious.

[duchess of malfi]

I find Linden a rather realistic portrayal of a sensitive person who was emotionally tortured and taught that she was completely worthless as a child.

The thing is -- even when you go on and make a good life for yourself, those self-doubts and that emotional oversensitivity and insecurity linger on in the darker side of yourself, waiting to spring out in moments of great stress... And if you doubt your worth deep down inside, you will have trouble making important decisions and always constantly question them.

The emotional damage of abuse has very deep roots, and lasts much, much, much longer than the physical damage (except in extreme cases).

And if the worst thing she does is whine, rather than copying the behavior her parents taught her (selfishness, that its all right to hurt other people, etc. etc.) then she's actually doing OK.

And yes -- Foul will will most certainly use those weaknesses against her. It will be quite interesting to see what he does, and how she will react to it.