Foul's "Deeper Purpose" ?

[finn]

Foul wants to "reclaim his rightful place in the eternal heavens", so he's not after embodiment in Covenants world or the land. Equally, I think that he's been too much of a b*stard already to have any hope of throwing off the disguise and saying "suprise, I'm really a good guy!"

The phrase quoted sounds far more 'Dante-esque' with Foul being Satan wanting to "reclaim his rightful place in the eternal heavens"

This does of course imply that he had such a place at some time and was cast down, or disenfranchised in some fashion...a fallen angel?

[CovenantJr]

CJ, I think Covenant's world is a much more attractive cell than the one he's in. He's already proven to himself (and us) that he can manipulate people into hurting themselves and those they love - and what could he possibly want more? OTOH, there's nothing stopping him in Covenant's world. No Earthpower, no lore-wise people like the Lords, no being of power like the Elohim, no Giants of Haruchai who can simply ignore him. The best opposition there is therapists - which don't stand much of a chance of stopping him.

I see your point there, but to my mind he doesn't want to ravage/conquer/whatever - what he wants is to escape. Being really viciously evil to the inhabitants of the world is the best he can do while he's stuck there. If evil within the confines of a world was what he wanted, he wouldn't bother seeking white gold all the time.
I can understand that in "our" world, there would be no-one to oppose him, but there would be no-one to aid him either. SRD has said that Foul mainly acts through tools and proxies, such as the Illearth Stone and Drool Rockworm, and while we have proxies aplenty, there are no banes or sources of power he can twist to his ends. In fact, since white gold holds no power here, would he ever be able to escape if he came to our world? At least in the Land he has a chance of making that happen.

[balon!]

Mabye Foul isn't in our world yet, but perhaps he's already twisting strings it it. I mean, hey, Bush got re-elcted right? *heh heh*

[Fist and Faith]

No, Foul doesn't have his tools here. But, as I said, he doesn't seem to need them. He did just fine the couple times he messed with people in order to get Covenant and/or Lindsey to go to the Land. If he had to choose, I think he'd rather come to our world, and eventually rule it. Maybe he could pull that off, maybe not, but I bet he thinks he could.

But I agree that's not what he wants. I think he wants his freedom back. Outside the Arch, there's probably lots and lots of stuff to mess with. I don't imagine the Creator can destroy him, so it would be a constant battle, with Foul always winning simply by causing any harm at all. Unless the Creator makes another Arch, an unpopulated one, and throws Foul into it for good.

But contrary to what Foul has said, I don't think he has any chance of destroying the Creator, or defeating him to the point where he, Foul, could rule the cosmos. He wasn't able to prevent the Creator from imprisoning him; he doesn't have the power to get out of one of the Creator's creations - the Arch - without another of the Creator's creations - wild magic; if he destroys the Arch, white gold, being the keystone of the Arch, would likely be useless, so he couldn't use it against the Creator.

[CovenantJr]

But contrary to what Foul has said, I don't think he has any chance of destroying the Creator, or defeating him to the point where he, Foul, could rule the cosmos. He wasn't able to prevent the Creator from imprisoning him; he doesn't have the power to get out of one of the Creator's creations - the Arch - without another of the Creator's creations - wild magic; if he destroys the Arch, white gold, being the keystone of the Arch, would likely be useless, so he couldn't use it against the Creator.

I get the impression from the books that wild magic may actually be external to all of this - that the Creator used it, but didn't create it, in much the same way the Lords used Earthpower but didn't create it. Perhaps Foul didn't know about wild magic before, or perhaps he knew but didn't have access, but I get the impression his possession of wild magic is what (he hopes) would enable him to defeat the Creator in direct battle. Presumably the Creator has access to it too, since he used it as a foundation for the earth, but my guess would be that a cosmic clash of wild magic would rip holes in the universe/reality, and therefore the Creator would withold his might somewhat, while Foul would have no such compunction. It's true that Foul has also tried to trick TC into breaking the Arch himself, but I think Foul could live with that outcome over his imprisonment.

[finn]

There appears to be some stalemate between them, the Creator does not seem to want or be able to 'kill' Foul, but can hold him imprisoned in the Land. Why would the Creator consign Foul to such a beautiful place? Perhaps he wants Foul to reform and embrace something other than despite.

The White Gold comes from outside this realm, summoned by Foul (and/or proxy's) to try to tip the balance. The Creator knows this and apparently cannot or will not stop this (free will?) but asks only that TC "be true".

However White Gold is "graven in every rock..." which begs a number of questions about the design of the Creator, his foresight, the potential of time travel and the part todays players have already played eons ago!

I find the level of benevolence of the Creator suprising, unless he truly loves Foul. It would be hard to love Foul in this manifestation, so what was he before being imprisoned, could he be related to the Creator, his son, his father?

Someone suggested that Foul could be the good guy, maybe not but he may once have been; could he find redemption, a prodigal son? His wish to RE-claim his place in the heavens also sparks questions for me, what heavens, what sort of pantheon are we dealing with...Greek, Norse, Hindu, Dante? What roles do Foul and the Creator play, Loki and Odin, Zeus and Hades, God and Satan?

This is a ways off the topic but if the relationship between Foul and Creator is played out as part of the completion of the whole TC saga, what's at stake for them will have to be written and this will need to be contextualised in their realm. OTOH, we may never know and never need to know!

[Lord Mhoram]

Junior,

You say that Foul would not wish to switch from one cell to another? I see your point, but I disagree: the people of our reality could prove to be much easier to corrupt than any in the Land, with their love for everything around them. If I were the Despiser, I would pick our reality. You're right: he wants to escape. But what means does he have to achieve this? It's been said before - he can't actually get out on his own, nor defeat the Creator himself. He needs to hurt people, manipulate them, to help him to break the Arch. His job might be easier "here."

[Fist and Faith]

I get the impression from the books that wild magic may actually be external to all of this - that the Creator used it, but didn't create it, in much the same way the Lords used Earthpower but didn't create it. Perhaps Foul didn't know about wild magic before, or perhaps he knew but didn't have access, but I get the impression his possession of wild magic is what (he hopes) would enable him to defeat the Creator in direct battle. Presumably the Creator has access to it too, since he used it as a foundation for the earth, but my guess would be that a cosmic clash of wild magic would rip holes in the universe/reality, and therefore the Creator would withold his might somewhat, while Foul would have no such compunction. It's true that Foul has also tried to trick TC into breaking the Arch himself, but I think Foul could live with that outcome over his imprisonment.

We, of course, don't know how the Lords and Landdwellers learned the things they knew, so we can't know if the stories they tell are truly fact. Everyone thought the Colossus was there to keep the Despiser out, until Mhoram was touched by samadhi, and learned the real story. So we don't know if it's true or not, but Tamarantha said:

"First he built the arch of Time, so that his creation would have a place in which to be - and for the keystone of that arch he forged the wild magic, so that Time would be able to resist chaos and endure."

Obviously, nobody but the Despiser could have been witness to all that, so who knows. But still, the Lords and Atiaran were right about a few other things regarding wild magic and white gold, so maybe.

[Rukh]

It is interesting to consider the possibilities here. I am probaly being a bit simplistic, but what if Foul's danger to the Creator is that he is an aspect of him, that by binding him beneath the Arch of Time, the Creator was simply trying to exorcise a part of himself, and that if Foul breaks free, he will reunite with the Godhead, and thus taint the Timless Halls?
Another aspect of this to consider is what if Foul's banishment was somehow essential to the act of Creation? Despite what the legends may say about the shadow of the Creator casting banes into the Earth that may be only one possible conceptualization of the truth of Creation. What if Despite was somehow essential to the process, and that Foul's position is somewhat like the Worm at the World's End, being the basis for creation, being bound into it?

[CovenantJr]

It's been said before - he can't actually get out on his own, nor defeat the Creator himself. He needs to hurt people, manipulate them, to help him to break the Arch. His job might be easier "here."

A fair point. My question is this: If he's in our world, he can break the Arch (assuming we have one) how? Yes, he can't do it himself in either world, but in the Land there's wild magic and a giant worm, and corruptible Earthpower... Is there anything in this world that equates to all that? And would Foul be willing to gamble on that?

[Scorn the Terrible]

Perhaps Lord Foul's ultimate intent is to be free of the trappings of existance to become a formless, mindless void once more? Lord Foul is immortal and strong, but perhaps he resents consciousness? Perhaps Lord Foul wishes his own destruction so that he may finally find peace.

I liken Lord Foul's entrapment within the Arch to being shaken roughly awake and then being forced to stay up; Foul wishes for rest.

Respite for Despite, if you know what I'm saying.

[I'm Murrin]

An interesting perspective.

[Scorn the Terrible]

Interesting... but it's merely a theory of mine. For all I know, Lord Foul wants to enter our reality just to sample a McGriddle.

Lord Foul: Look upon me, frail creature, and shudder! I, Lord Foul the Despiser, have come to your world to claim that which is owed to me! I have come to take for myself a "McGriddle"!
McDonald's Worker: You want fries with that?
Lord Foul: To you, pitiful worm, I say this; yes!

[CovenantJr]

[Worm of Despite]

Imagine Foul as a normal mortal in our reality?

What, is that difficult to imagine?!

[Scorn the Terrible]

Unlike his father, it appears Covenant Jr. has yet to do all his laughing.

Ghost of Foamfollower: Stone and Sea! Pull my finger!