The March of the Warward

Post by **Ak-Haru** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 6:36 am

A league is 3.0 miles(4.8 kilometers). This meant that the Warward was covering 30 miles each day. If they were marching at a speed of 3 mph(not a terribly fast pace), they would be walking for ten hours of the day, and resting for 14. It would be strenous to keep that up for 28 days, but not nearly as hard as Donaldson makes it out to be. Anyone else have thoughts on this? If the warriors were pysically fit, they should have been able to march that far without dropping dead, IMO.

Post by **Bannor** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:08 pm

I don't know, but it seems that an army marching 840 miles in 28 days, fighting along the way would be tough on anyone (except the Bloodguard, of course). Hile Troy couldn't hack it after one day: was the army so much in shape (28 times as much as Troy)? Did the army hike long distances each day in case they needed to go 840 miles at some point in the future. I'm trying to picture 840 miles in my head, and it's almost exactly what I drove going from Louisiana to Kentucky. Seems an enormous distance to attempt on foot (and fight wargs, ur-viles, and a Giant Raver).

Post by **CovenantJr** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 9:54 pm

Indeed. Also taking into account limited food supplies, and the fact that sleeping on the ground is not the most restful experience in any case... Plus the terrain might well have been really hard going.

And how fit were they really? Did every member of the Warward go running every day? Possibly. But in a time when there had been nothing but peace for generations, perhaps the Warward wasn't in prime condition. Just a thought...

Post by **Bannor** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:11 pm

Well said, Covenant, Jr. I think they must have had "some" training because Lord Foul was always creating havoc, but not to make such a trek as they had to make. That reminds me: before they even started fleeing the Giant Raver, they had to make that long trip to meet the Raver!

Reminds me of the film, Tarzan's 3 Great Challenges (not sure of the exact title). Tarzan had to show wisdom as one of the challenges, and to do that, he had to answer a question: "When traveling to meet an enemy from a great distance away, what should one have to make sure of?" The answer Tarzan gave was, "Make sure the journey is made by the enemy."

Post by **CovenantJr** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:20 pm

Ah, Tarzan...that legendary veteran general

Perhaps he might have done a better job than Hile Troy...

"Cower before us, Despiser, for we are led by........some bloke in a loincloth!"

Post by **Sivit na-Morham** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:26 pm

Actually I think SD played down the brutalty of such a march. Consider that each soldier would be carrying his own weapon and supplies. There were no roads, and thirty miles per day, day in day out. Three miles per hour for ten hours with no breaks? If you add two thirty minute rest periods, and a lunch break then you are up to twelve hours. Now you add an hour getting up and ready, then add an hour settling in, not to mention those who would be guards (of course the blood gaurd would have done that) But now your up to resting ten hours but preparing or jouneying for fourteen hours to mantain the 30 miles per day. I suspect many would die. I doubt if most atheletes could perform such a feat.

Sivit

Post by **danlo** » Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:52 pm

Not 2 mention kresh nipping @ ur heels!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 6:37 pm

This question has had me scratching my head many times. After a thorough examination, Donaldson's description is probably pretty accurate. All I can say is that I wouldn't want to make that hike myself.

Post by **Theo** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:29 pm

Generally speaking, a pre-mechanized army marching on foot would normally cover about 20-25 km (12-15 miles) a day. You could speed this up by forced marches and reach a speed of 35-40 km (20-25 miles) a day for a few day, but that quickly exhausted the troops and generally led to bad losses - mainly stragglers falling behind and deserters dropping off.

The march in The Illearth War is insanely brutal by historical standards. Low-tech armies were very slow-moving, particularly because of the huge bulk of the supplies that had to be dragged along. I don't remember the details on how they handled the logistics in TIW, but it should have been a damn hassle.

Theo

Post by **Landwaster** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:32 pm

Anybody mentioned yet the prospect of every 2nd or 3rd night spending half of it up and awake on guard duty?

And they don't just stroll along, the set a brisk pace, that's marching. I can't remember for sure but did were there spells of faster paces?

Ok the state I live in (Victoria - note South Aussies how the word is akin to Victory), is about 750k long. So in a month, walking the entire length of Vic, umm ... I walked/run/jogged 44km once, it took me 7 hours ... but I was not able to walk any further for about a week

I think SRD has it pretty well covered.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:39 pm

Theo wrote:Low-tech armies were very slow-moving, particularly because of the huge bulk of the supplies that had to be dragged along. I don't remember the details on how they handled the logistics in TIW, but it should have been a damn hassle.

Theo

I couldn't agree more except that a damn hassle isn't a strong enough statement for what those soldiers went through. The very idea of accomplishing such a feat and then discover it aint over by a long shot. Yikes.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:42 pm

Landwaster wrote: Ok the state I live in (Victoria - note South Aussies how the word is akin to Victory), is about 750k long. So in a month, walking the entire length of Vic, umm ... I walked/run/jogged 44km once, it took me 7 hours ... but I was not able to walk any further for about a week

What ever posessed you to make that trek in the first place?
You are a better person than I.

Post by **Forestal** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:37 pm

what people will do in the name of fitness

Post by **Theo** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:59 pm

clearfrontier wrote: I couldn't agree more except that a damn hassle isn't a strong enough statement for what those soldiers went through. The very idea of accomplishing such a feat and then discover it aint over by a long shot. Yikes.

Well, it was meant as an understatement. You'd have to imagine the words "a damn hassle" as spoken by a stiff-upper-lip British colonial officer and referring to a disastrous jungle expedition that cost him 3/4 of his troops... or something.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:02 pm

Point taken, Theo.

Post by **Forestal** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:30 pm

its a wonder that troy's army managed to stand up after that, let alone fight the raver's army... i guess it just goes to show that troy was a bit of a fool really...

dooms retreat may have been a good strategic place, but if tis too far away that wont do u much good mate... gotta find somewhere closer...

Post by **Seafoam Understone** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:41 pm

Yes, and the main problem was Troy's underestimation of Foul's/Fleshharrower's army. He wanted to be at this place at this time and had to get his army there. Then when he gets there he sees that the opposition is just WAY TOO BIG and has to change tactics...

Troy made serious blunders in his overconfident assessments and abilities. It was a serious blow to his ego that's for sure.

The march was a death's march and probably something that Foul had counted on. Everyone's assessment of the distance is pretty correct I think. Now as an experienced backpacker I'll throw this out too.
Average pack with individual supplies can weigh up to 35-40 pounds.
A soldier's pack could've weighed 45-50... yah they're in great shape alright... now add their personal armor/weapons to be another 25-30 lbs.
That's an additional (at minimum) 60-75 lbs of weight to carry over those long rolling hills (up and down and back up again) at a regular pace. Then he has them half running to Guard's Gap...

Ya, poor Troy brilliant tactical analyst but piss-poor general.

Luckily Mhorham and the other Lords were there to provide the Lord's stew and moral support.

Another thing that Troy didn't factor in... The Illearth Stone giving Foul's army an unholy boost of energy.

Post by **Forestal** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:48 pm

so basically the lords before were right in fighting at the center plains rather than runnnig all the way down there to get their asses worn out and kicked...

perhaps the best idea would have been to draw them right up 2 revelstone, and take them there... at least that way foul's army is worn out... but then they wouldn't walk that fast, they had plenty of time... so they could have spent more time workin on the lore and training before they had to fight...

troy screwed up royally... dont get me wrong, i like troy, but he screwed up in the largest degree...

Post by **Landwaster** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:13 am

clearfrontier wrote:
Landwaster wrote: Ok the state I live in (Victoria - note South Aussies how the word is akin to Victory), is about 750k long. So in a month, walking the entire length of Vic, umm ... I walked/run/jogged 44km once, it took me 7 hours ... but I was not able to walk any further for about a week
What ever posessed you to make that trek in the first place?
You are a better person than I.

Was a charity run/walk that hundreds did, for a charity of our own choice

Re Troy leading his army to wards Doom's Retreat etc, the miscalculation of Fleshharrower's army was a double-stuff-up for him. a) it was so big that he was only really powerful enough to tackle the vanguard, not the whole force, and b) the other party he sent out to harry/delay was so overwhelmed by the size of the opposition that his plans were upset by their ineffectuality.

Post by **Mistweave** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:51 am

You also need to consider their morale and the stress these people were under knowing they were going to face a Raver Giant, the illearth stone, the stone's corrupted troops WITHOUT the High Lord and the Staff of Law.

There is also the comfort angle of travelling a great distance with heavy supplies with low-tech boots, backpack, etc.

Starting and Stopping large groups is also a slow process - think of traffic jams during peak hour

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

The March of the Warward

The March of the Warward