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Book 1 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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ur-bane
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Re: Another Opportunity

Post by ur-bane »

lurch wrote:Its not the count of activity in Runes,,,its the depth of consequences and implications of each activity that counts....MEL
Very well said, lurch.
I agree with you 100% on that. As my wife will tell you, I was drawn in from the first page, and didn't look back.
I have now read it 3 times, and will read it again after I finish my GRRM.

After the 20 year wait, it was worth every penny I spent. And I think that to those whom "Runes didn't get me like Chron 1& 2 did," they'll still be waiting impatiently for Fatal Revenant. :)
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Post by Sergio »

with all due respect, stop. you're just reaching....

i was just saying pure and simple, SRD didn't grab me the way he did before. nor did he convince me of the whole thing, which he pretty much did before....

it has nothing to do with me not getting it, or being unable to suspend belief, or that in not getting it, that's exactly what SRD was going for.

that's all...i can explain to you why sgt pepper's is the all time genius when it comes to albums, but if you don't feel it, my explination means nothing.

p.s. as for waiting impatiently for FR, of course i will be. i will be wiating for all three books the same way. but that's because of what the entire series means/meant to me. on the basis of TROTE alone, sorry, wouldn't have
Last edited by Sergio on Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Edelaith »

The answer is still yes, and would be for any normal person. At least, that is my opinion.

There was a child in Toronto who was a very big fan of Tolkien. Peter Jacksons' Fellowship of the Ring was due for release in a few weeks, and the child wanted to see it.
However, this child did not have a few weeks. He was in the last stages of terminal cancer. He had only a few days.
They held a special screening of FOTR for this child and his family, so that he would have a chance to see his favorite author up on the silver screen. Because they did, the child got his chance, which he had been looking forward to for years, to see that film. A few days later, he did die, and this occurred well before the general release of FOTR to the public.

I could think of many important things I would want to do, to become, to experience, and to know before I died. Some of them are quite important and quite personal.
But that does not trivialize the experience of reading the Last Chronicles. They are not in some way demeaned by the ultra seriousness of the other issues. I would not trivialize that childs' desire to see FOTR. I won't trivialize the reading of good books.

Charles Schutz DIED the day his final (farewell) Peanuts strip hit the newspapers.
I do not believe that was a coincidence. And most certainly it was not a trivial matter.
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Post by ur-bane »

Sergio, I don't think there's any reaching going on here.
I think it is simply a matter of the book being different than you expected.
SRD has a knack for doing that. To a certain extent, there is predictability, but just when you think you know what's going to happen next.......well, you know the rest.

I just hope that Runes has not left you discouraged to the point that the Land is lost for you.

Hold faith, and re-read it in a while. I think you will regain the sense of wonder that first you had when reading the Chronicles.

EDIT.....posted after your edit. :?
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Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln

Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
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Post by Sergio »

oh i defintily WILL read...absolutly (sp?) !

what i mean reaching is, you can't tell somebody why they're wrong because they didn't get a piece of art. it either gets to you, or it doesn't, that's it. to explain why i missed it, is reaching is all i'm saying.
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Post by Variol Farseer »

A phrase just came to mind that might explain why some people are so disappointed with Runes: it feels like the answer to the wrong question. The evils are subtler, the pace is slower, and the background has to be explained in a detail that was unnecessary in the earlier books. (For instance, we get more close psychological detail about Elena in Runes, when she has been dead for 7000 years, than in The Illearth War, when she was alive. And this is necessary to the plot.)

At the end, it looks as if a battle against the Demondim is in the offing, and we're left in a state of suspense, wondering who will win. I suspect Fatal Revenant will start, once again, by giving us the answer to what seems like the wrong question. Perhaps there won't be a fight at all. The question I haven't seen anyone ask (though I haven't read every thread) is this: What do the Demondim want? They must have some compelling reason to project their particular power millennia into the future.
Spoiler
The power of the Illearth Stone, that is. The Demondim themselves could be flung through time by a caesure, but why tap that extra power when they are so much stronger than the people of the Land already?
As the whole ten-book series progresses, it becomes less and less useful to know what happens; more and more vital to know why. Some fans who liked the original mixture are bound to be disappointed. For that matter, some fans were seriously disappointed by the Second Chronicles. (John Clute, the well-known critic, seems to be one of these. It was Covenant's Unbelief that grabbed him in the first place; in the Second Chronicles, he says with barely concealed disdain, the Land turned into just another fantasy world.)

SRD is a writer who consistently undermines his readers' expectations; above all, he is always subverting himself. Runes is enough to make you wonder if Berek really was the First Betrayer, as the Clave said, and if the Earthpower is just Pandora's box in an alluring disguise. I suspect that still more wrenching transformations are yet to come. By the time we read The Last Dark, we will probably have the answers to all our present questions — and wonder how we could ever have been so naive as to think those questions actually mattered.
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Post by Loredoctor »

VF - John Clute said that? WOW.
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Post by Variol Farseer »

Loremaster wrote:VF - John Clute said that? WOW.
I'm paraphrasing, of course. He did praise the Second Chronicles for 'further subverting' the plot tropes of modern fantasy.

You can find a bit more detail in the article on SRD in Clute's Encyclopedia of Fantasy. (One of the things that annoys me about that book, by the way, is that it has individual entries for every movie, TV series, comic, and animated production in the genre, but not for books. If you want to find out about a book, you have to look up the author — where you will find a potted summary of the author's style, career, and place in history, without much information about specific books. So Clute's treatment of the Covenant books is very brief.)
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Ah ha! There it is!

Post by Sergio »

Finally, someone said something that let's me better verbalize, or actually just realized why I was upset with TROTE.
(John Clute, the well-known critic, seems to be one of these. It was Covenant's Unbelief that grabbed him in the first place; in the Second Chronicles, he says with barely concealed disdain, the Land turned into just another fantasy world.)
With the 1st chronicles, to me it was all about the narative. Here's TC, he's quite a prick, a rapist, and he just can't decide what's real, what's not and doesn't take a real stance till TPTP.

Now jump to the 2nd chronicles, and SRD can't go the same route (believe vs. unbelief) TC has come to proper terms within himself. So his second round in The Land can't be the same ol' shtick. So he gives him a totally different dilema. He's now a leper in The Land as well (no health-sense), and everything (and almost everything) points to the fact that his ring should be Linden's. Believe me, I hated when I read what a lousy position he was in.

But! SRD was able to pull me in anyway. He made me care enough about everything, and feel TC's suffering so that I was no longer upset by my hero being so messed up, and in such dire straits.

That's what's missing, for me. Like TC, in the 2nd, Linden was dropped in The Land in the Last chronicles, and while I was upset that she couldn't be Linden of the 2nd, I wasn't given reason enough to care about the whole package to really care.

Take Liand vs. Sunder. Early on, I could read Sunder's inner-conflict. I thought what summed it up best was when Sunder tried what he knew to be "poisenous" alianthia for the first time. And I'll have to quote it, so none of the richness is lost:
Aburptly, he took the berry, put it in his mouth. For a moment, his soul was naked in his face. His initial anticipation of harm became involuntary delight; his inner world struggled to alter itself. His hands quavered when he took the seed from his mouth. "Heaven and Earth!" he breathed. His awe was as exquisite as anguish. "Covenant-" His jaw worked to form words. "Is this truly the Land-- the Land of which my father dreamed?"

"Yes"

"Then he was mad." One deep spasm of grief shook Sunder before he tugged back about him the tattered garment of his self-command. "I must learn to be likewise mad."
Even though there was no narrative for Sunder, SRD made you feel everybody's pain, and self-doubt, and growth. You saw and felt what everything was about. And what people were feeling.

All I got from Liand, who I expected to be another Sunder, was "How he wanted to learn because the Masters taught him nothing." And while that's not a quote, it might as well be, ooooh shiver in anticipation. As Clute said, the Land has just become another fantasy world for me.

Again, that's just one example, the first two chronicles were filled with stuff like that. But I always remembered that scene with Sunder and the berries.

You know, I better drop this thread, the more I discuss this, the more I realize how short SRD left me in this novel. And the more disallusioned I will become.

So I end this on a postive note, his are the only books that made me ever give a hoot about something enough to join a discussion group.

Whew, sorry for the long post people. But as I said, that quote made me realize what it was that I was unhappy about. And again people, important footnote, not trying to tell people who liked it they were wrong. This was just my opinion, how it affected me, etc.
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Post by Sergio »

yoursovain wrote:Then I started to realise ROTE is all about what's missing - history, earthpower, Jeremiah and most centrally, TC himself. Perhaps this more abstract structure and the experience of so much missing is not enough to make an emotional connection for you. whatever the purpose of SRD - but its hardly just another fantasy story - too much missing!
But I could point out things missing in the first two: Which is the truth? How will TC cope? The people's total miseducation, etc. etc.

But the narative was always there! It just ain't this time, IMHO. :?

It is possible what I dislike about the book isn't the story, but the writing itself! Hey, it's possible. The man wrote what I consider to be in my top 20 lists of books. But that doesn't mean he can't write a bomb. Or a mediocre piece.
As for Sgt Peppers as masterpiece - scrambled old Brit dancehall tunes with lightweight overly obvious pychedelia does not a masterpiece make, IMHO! :twisted:
Uh oh, this means war! :x
In short - in some cases ambition and strength of emotion can be evaluated above personal tastes - whether people enjoy the result or not.
Yeah, eh...I dunno.

Anyway, I gotta drop this thread. Seems I am on the defensive at all times. And wasn't trying to make my case to others, convert people etc.

Just wanted to note my disappointment. :cry:
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Post by yoursovain »

Hey - no offence meant Sergio! In fact there's nothing wrong with a bit of a tussle - in fact that was what I was encouraging you to do, not shut you up! Sorry for the miscommunication. :oops:

One of the reasons I love SRD is he is always negotiating and even playing with contradictions - forcing the characters to battle it out even though they must deal with the often huge consequences.

Sergio - one final point (if you're not over the whole thang) - those 'missing' elements you mentioned in the first 2 chrons are mysteries and confusions - I meant that in ROTE the very substance, emotional and structural, is missing from the land, ie TC and earthpower are just not there or are at least on the fringes and heading into the vacuum (no doubt smacking into us in Fatal Revenant).
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Post by Sergio »

No offense taken, really! I think we are miscommunicating on what is missing.

To me what is missing is the depth of the writing itself, not elements of the story.
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Post by sindatur »

For me, the difference was the lighter tone, since we were in Linden's head, rather than in Covenant's head.

I kinda dreaded it when I found out Linden would be the hero and main focus this time around, but, I actually believe I enjoyed it more, with the lighter tone. People who were turned off by the first two chronicles and unable to finish them have made statements like "Who wants to spend all that time reading something that's so depressing it makes you want to slit your wrists". Runes did not have this heaviness to it. So, maybe for some people, that's what wrong with it. I personally feel that's what's right with it.
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Post by CovenantJr »

I think Sergio's quote illustrates a good point. In the previous books, everything was saturated with emotion, even the smallest acts or thoughts. But in Runes, it's all act and less emotion.
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Post by lurch »

..well, serg,,there is no rite or wrong out side of ones own beliefs. So, when posting in a public chatroom, alls one can hope for or to do, is guide them to a new understanding. Alas, most of the time the water is there, but the horse for whatever reason, decides not to drink.
...Allow me to point out some " guides" that may or may not increase your appreciation of Runes , to at least the level of seeing a real Treasure created by Donaldson .

The very Title suggests a mystery, a hiddeness, the undecipherable. So, perhaps the reader is being asked to search. Search where? Where else, in SRD's words. An example: In the real world section there is a sentence that seems unnecessary, almost a throw away, not emotionally drenched, or even tied to anything of import. The sentence concerns the baby sitter Sandy(?) and that she isn't married but has dated the son of a certain so and so. So what?, whats that got to do with anything? Like I said, a throw away line . Take time to look up in the dictionary the fathers last name. Some where in there you will find a reference to a Crown. Put it together and you get,,that the son of so and so,,isn't quite Sandy's Prince Charming. From that one can extract much more, but my point is that there is, " play" involved here., word play.

On each re-reading, as with all TCC books, the more and more I sink into the figurative. For me , Runes is no different. I am glad to see that you finally were able express exactly what it was or wasn't about Runes that generated your initial post. I believe you too , upon re-readings, will find your own deeper understanding which hopefully will allow even more searching for ones own Runes................MEL
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Post by Sheriff Lytton »

I'm personally relieved to see Donaldson has written an accessible Covenant novel at last.

As much as I enjoyed the first two chronicles and as much as I consider them to be among the greatest stories ever written, I considered them to often be self indulgent, long winded and bloody hard work to get through.

Sort of the literary equivalent of prog rock if you like ! I've got some prog rock albums I love, but they'd have been a hell of a lot better with a little restraint being brought into play.

Anyway, I loved Runes and seeing as Donaldson's just engineered a situation with Covenant, Linden, Jeremiah, Anele and the Haruchai stuck in Revelstone, surrounded by Demondim... well, I like a good siege scene and I think I'm going to enjoy the start of Fatal Revenant a good deal.

And once we've got the seige out of the way we've got the whole Kastenessen/Esmer/Merewives scenario to play out, against the backdrop of Foul assaulting time itself. And all the other little tasters we got in Runes (and on my third reading of the book, there's an awful lot of unanswered questions I'd not even considered beforehand).

It just doesn't get any better than this as far as I'm concerned. I'm even prepared to forgive the excessive use of the words "phosphenes" (mildly annoying) and "formication" (infuriating).
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Post by Sergio »

So does anybody know of an expectant date for "Fatal Revenant"
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Post by drew »

I'm with you Lytton (and Lurch)
Even though I absolutly loved every book of the 1st and the 2nd chros. Runes, to me, seems to be a much better book..although I've only read it once so far.
The Formication thing didn't bother me that much, once I found out what it meant-I mean how many other words for 'The feeling of ants crawling all over you' are there?
I've also thought (and posted in other threads) that irritating as it was to read that word Every 2nd sentance for a chapter, is probebly how irritating it would be to go through a ceasure.
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Post by yoursovain »

Well put Lurch! Much more gently so than old crankypants here (that's me). :wink:

Love your emphasis on Runes and deciphering them - presenting an otherwise empty landscape with hints/references to the storm approaching - read the runes of the earth or perish!

Sindatur - that lack of heaviness might be a problem explored in later books - remember that the emphasis in the first 2 chrons was on the true strength of the guilt-ridden and the eventual powerlessness of the power-wielding types. Linden running around wielding staff AND ring AND moving thru time and yet still ending up stuck in revelstone surrounded by Demondim is a hint toward this powerlessness/emptiness of power seen in ROTE. Still not acting, stuck in paralysis like the Masters is no better...fatal revanant, where are you!
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Post by Edelaith »

I have had this sinking feeling since reading Runes of the Earth that the next three books are going to be filled with crushing levels of pain (for the characters, and thus for the reader.)
In reading Runes of the Earth and getting the complete refresher on the Land and it's history, and all the new information, and seeing the peoples of the Land come together as never before, and Linden with both the Ring and the Staff and the willingness to use both ...
Can we say: better take a deep breath, because it's going to be a long underwater swim?
That's my premonition, at least.
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