Lawful ur-viles?

[Gareth Yaztromo]

I was just wondering why the ur-viles created Vain with the purpose to re-create the Staff of Law? I thought they are evil servants of Lord Foul? It just doesn't make sense.

[danlo]

I have a pet theory, that I haven't developed yet, that strains of good were masked and passed through the demondim-spawn and other creations, corruptions and mis-shaping of Foul's such as ur-viles, Vain, the Waynhym and, of course, the jherrinin. Remember the old legends said the Viles were once a high and lofty race and after Foul "rendered them seedless" I believe they must have found a way 2 somehow pass an once of their goodness through the demondim-spawn and other creations. I don't kno about the cavewrights--I think, with all their flaws, they were Foul's baby alone--the Ravers on the other hand r a completely dif matter. The only excuses I can give TC 4 mistreating Vain is: 1) He freaked him out by the way he killed the Stonedowners 2) Vain was demondim-spawn and 3) 4got Vain was even there 3/4ths of the time... It has been pointed out 2 me since I intially wrote this around 6-15 that the cavewrights were, initially "nuetral" as well.***BTW! Welcome 2 the Watch John!!!

[The Wounded Moose]

I think the Ur-Viles had another motive for creating Vain and a new Staff of Law. I believe they learned that is was indeed Foul's purpose to destroy the earth and not simply take it over. Thusly the Staff would prevent Foul from returning after his second defeat. If Foul had destroyed the Earth, he and the Ravers would be able to escape it, where as the Ur-Viles would simply die.

[Lord Mhoram]

I agree. I think the ur-viles knew in the long run there was nothing it for them.

[Tohrm]

Wounded Moose: I think that you have a kernel of the truth in your musings. I think that you are right about the point that they did not want their race to die out.
Danlo: You have a good point as well about them having passed down a hint of good in their created offspring.
But here is my two cents worth. Yes they could not have offspring, but that did not mean that they were 'childless'. The ur-viles were their children. And the ur-viles abhorred their being made rather than born, the same as the waynhim did. But each had their 'weird', their reason for being. I believe that the ur-viles created Vain for the purpose of recreating law for a reason that has not yet been suggested. That reason being that they themselves were creatures of law, even though they were made. And being creatures of law, they abhorred the way that the law had been perverted. In WGW, SRD said,

Vain had been so perfectly made that he attained the stature of natural Law, brought to beauty all the self-loathing of the ur-viles.

He also said,

Somewhere above them, the few remaining ur-viles watched Kiril Threndor in a reflective pool of acid and barked vindication at Vain's success.

I think that even though they were creatures who did LF's bidding, they were sometimes left to their own devices to do his bidding. But it was because LF figured out what they did behind his back with the creation of Vain, that he sent them out to stop the quest from reaching Kiril Threndor intact. It was LF's anger that sent them out for a revenge, the destruction of the ur-viles under the sunbane. If they destroyed the quest at the same time, well and good. LF could then have gone out and just picked up the white gold ring on his own without having to have it given to him. He would not have had to risk TC telling him where to go when asked for the ring.

[Gareth Yaztromo]

Thanks for the feedback guys, and thanks for the welcome danlo. All those points seem very valid and it makes some sense now. *L* And while on the subject of ur-viles I noticed there was an earlier discussion about the reason why the Despiser's name was Foul. If the ur-viles were once known as Viles and were a noble race, why were they called Viles? Or did their race have a different name originally? I guess we will never know. It would be really cool if SD had a book on the history of The Land and its races.

[amanibhavam]

Viles may not have been their original name; they could obtain it later; just as Foul had obtained his name from the people of the Land: I doubt his real name is Foul, if he had a name at all.

[pitchwife]

One of the questions that always came to me when reading the Chronicles was the origins of the ur-viles, Waynhym, and all the rest of Foul's allies. Were they originally created by the creator? If so were they created evil, and if not were they later corrupted by Foul? Did Foul have the ability to create things in the land, after he was imprisoned in it? Or maybe they (ur-viles, etc.) were part of the banes he planted in the world behind the back of the creator before his imprisonment.

pitchwife

[Lord Mhoram]

I think they were influenced by Foul to join his cause because he offered them more then any other parties.

[The Wounded Moose]

The Ur-Viles and Waynhim were both called Demondim-spawn and i would conclude that they were made by some extinct species called Demondim. Remember they aren't natural creations and this gives them their unnaturally long life and powerful lore. The Ur-Viles were evil because they simply abhorred their being unnatural where the Waynhim just tried to make the best of their existense.

[Gareth Yaztromo]

danlo and the others revealed the ur-viles and Waynhim to be created by the Viles who were the original race of that kind.

Remember the old legends said the Viles were once a high and lofty race and after Foul "rendered them seedless" I believe they must have found a way 2 somehow pass an once of their goodness through the demondim-spawn and other creations.

Because Lord Foul made them unable to reproduce it is understandable that they would find other means to keep their race alive. So creating unnatural offspring was their only alternative. But why make 2 strands from the same race?

I found this definition on how the ur-viles were made from a website:

"It was turiya and moksha who lured the powerful and austere Demondim to their breeding dens, and to the spurning of the Ur-Viles. These Black roynish creatures of power are Lord Foul's tools of fiendish destruction. The Demondim created a creature of high intellect able to perform powerful works of evil magic. The Ur-viles survive on their wisdom lacking any strength or constitution. Yet their dark lore defies even the Lords in its extreme power." - The Land Home Page

If this is true, then the Demondim or Viles (2 names for the same race? - though "Demondim" has been used to describe both ur-vile and Waynhim) were the original race. Then Lord Foul gets his Ravers to lure or force them into some kind of underground breeding area, where they create the ur-viles. It doesn't say specifically, but I'm guessing the Ravers experiemented a little (prehaps when Foul or the Ravers rendered the subjects seedless) and created the ur-viles. It wouldn't seem rational that the Viles created the ur-viles if they were a noble race. But if they were twisted and perverted in the experiments then that would make sense.

So many unanswered questions. Like were the Viles actually transformed into ur-viles by some kind of perversion, or were the Viles' offspring transformed into ur-viles, while their parents were kept as breeding stock then left to die in imprisonment (old age or killed off)? But then again if the Viles were seedless how could they "breed". And another question: why were the Waynhim created? I doubt Foul wanted a good strand among his ranks of ur-viles. I'm guessing, like danlo suggested, that the Viles wanted to pass on their noble heritage so they made the Waynhim - probably in secret.

Then again I could be completely off. I think I asked to many questions, and repeated myself somewhere in this post (prolly more than once!). *LOL* If none of this makes sense then it's because I haven't enough sleep lately. X_x

[Gareth Yaztromo]

... oh and on another note. Does anyone know the significance of the prefix "ur-" like in ur-vile and ur-Lord (the title given to Thomas Covenant)? Is it like Mr. or Sir - some kind of esteemed title?

[CovenantJr]

My understanding was that there was a race called the Demondim, and that the Viles were somehow decended from them... But then again, misinterpretation is not uncommon in TCTC, and I can't remember exactly where I got that idea from...

With regards to the 'ur-' prefix, it seems to me to essentially mean 'pseudo'. TC was an ur-Lord - not actually a Lord, but with similar standing and authority. The ur-Viles were similar to Viles, being in some way their offspring (unnatural or otherwise), but were not actually Viles.

[danlo]

I can't back this up w/fact, yet. But I've always had the impression that some weird genetic engineering was going on in the transition from Viles 2 demondim-spawn...off 2 research some more! bye!

[KaosArcana]

It seems to me that Hamoko (sp?) told Covenant that the ur-viles
still reproduce by lore rather than biology ... and that the resulting
creations are sometimes ur-viles and sometimes Waynhim ...

Come to think of it, what was the difference betwen the ur-viles
and Waynhim in appearance anyway? I thought they were more
or less identical ... the ur-viles were just bigger.

[danlo]

It was Foul who was in the process of corrupting the Viles, but it was the grandson of Berek and son of Damelon Giantfriend who rendered impotent the Demondim 2 stop such corruption: Loric Vilesilencer. So the terms Vile and Demondim do apply 2 the same race...The Cavewrights were nuetural and a bit cool 2 as renowned miners, smithys and traders b4 Foul messed w/them. And remember the ur-viles were "lorewise" so they must have had a little something left in their heads! "Of the Demondim-spawn who survived the Desolation the Waynhim turned against the ur-viles and recalled Loric with gratitude"...So it appears that the some corrupted Viles resisted Foul better than others and that the Waynhim became nuetural w/ an once of "good" in them

-...and asked the Lords to give them a service to perform, as expiation for the sins of their kindred. These creatures, the Waynhim, care for the Waymeets-helping the trees grow, providing food and drink. But the bond between men and the Waynhim is fragile, and you will not see one, They serve for their own reasons, not for love of us--performing simple tasks to redeem the evil of their mighty lore. -LFB pg.121

So that says, 2 me, that perhaps the old Lords may have learned something about the essense of "earthpower" from the Viles b4 Foul corrupted their lore. The history of the Viles, and associations w/Berek on down 2 Loric would be facinating indeed! (this raises the interesting possibility that the Waynhim may have pooled 2gether what little "good" lore they retained, secreted it away until 1 of their kind disquished itself as an ur-vile, snuck in2 the pits of Mt. Thunder and tossed it in2 a bane "shaping" cauldron-thus creating Vain. Whether that Waynhim survived or was tossed in after it is another matter... )

[fightingmyinstincts]

But I'm not sure...I think VIles and Demondim are two separate things...maybe, like the Viles are bad and the Demondim are good? I have no idea...but I've always wondered about this period of history and why Loric was Vilesilencer...I guess this calls for a rereading of some sort...(sigh...will I ever be through with these books? )

[danlo]

I'll have 2 look a little closer 2--perhaps the Demondim refers 2 the Viles after the corruption--but from the research I've done in LFB, alone mind u, it indicates that they were the same. May have 2 search the old archive, as well...

[amanibhavam]

The Demondim were a lawful race,
Full of wisdom, power and grace,
But they were promiscuous,
Nasty, horny and luscious,
So they got wiped out without a trace...

[ak_Haru]

'Ur-Viles' was the name given to them by the people of the Land. I'm sure their name in their own language was much different.