Thomas and Foul being one

Post by **Revan** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:02 pm

At the end of WGW, Thomas says to Linden that Foul is just another side of them. I don't understand. Can someone please redeem my ignorance.

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 6:04 pm

Covenant believed that the Despiser was a part of him that lay in his subconscious - part that worked against the leper's care he placed around him in his real life, and had learned he had to ignore to survive - but in the dream this part of him was manifest as Foul. When Linden was introduced to the dream, he had to compensate - he decided that Foul must be the dark part in all of them, everyone who whares the dream.

Post by **Romeo** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 6:12 pm

And Mhoram said (something like), "... the Despiser claims that you are enemies ... remember that he always seeks to deceive you ..."

Which reinfoced Covenant's belief that he and Foul were parts of each other.

Now... just because things worked out in the end, it doesn't mean he was right about that. heh heh. So even though he said it after he was dead, it still doesn't make it truth. (the only truth is there is no truth)

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:31 pm

This theory is BS, imo. If Foul is indeed part of Covenant, then how in the end did Covenant 'defeat' Foul? Now, I'm not saying that Foul is dead, per se, but he is defeated. Another point: if they are one, how is one dead?

Post by **hamako** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:35 pm

This theory is BS, imo. If Foul is indeed part of Covenant, then how in the end did Covenant 'defeat' Foul? Now, I'm not saying that Foul is dead, per se, but he is defeated. Another point: if they are one, how is one dead?

"Therein lies the paradox of white gold" as said more than a few times.

Your comment to me contains proof that TC & Foul are one and the same - the only way that TC could defeat Foul was to turn his power on himself as he did using Foul at he very end. How else could Foul's use of the wild magic against TC have the effect of wiping him out? There was no reflection of power, only the gradual reduction of Foul as he wielded more and more power at TC.

One isn't "dead" - they are both reduced (to use the chronicles own words). ONly the 3rd set will determine how much. Further because of this, I can't see how Tom can come back without Foul.

If TC is the arch of time, Foul's the flaw in it.

Post by **Jua** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:29 pm

Foul is just the personification of everyone’s, self-loathing, hate, fear, loneliness, despair, Covenants Lindens, yours, and mine. With out foul there is no Hope Love Happiness Self worth.

Post by **amanibhavam** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:37 pm

IMHO SRD deliberately did not state anywhere explicitly that "Foul is just the other half of Covenant" - it's up to us to decide for ourselves which theory we like

as for me, I don't "like" this theory - the idea that the Land is an independently existing parallel wotld is more appealing to me - but of course that might be just wishful thinking

Post by **Revan** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:26 pm

I think this all ties in with the theory of the land being a dream or real.

Post by JD » Sat Jun 21, 2003 5:33 pm

The whole series revolves around the Good and Evil theme. Without evil, good cannot exist, the paradox of the white gold, Foul is the dark side of Covenant, etc.

Post by JD » Sat Jun 21, 2003 5:47 pm

The whole series revolves around the Good and Evil theme. Without evil, good cannot exist, the paradox of the white gold, Foul is the dark side of Covenant, etc.

Post by **Revan** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:57 am

Two very valid points.

Post by **Skyweir** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 2:40 pm

i agree with amy and mhoram on this .. i think that the meaning is to be interpreted is that Foul is the representation of despite and hopelessness .. that TC needed to conquer ..

if TC had defeated Foul but not killed him .. and they are in fact 'ONE' .. then why did this exercise kill TC .. regardless of his physical condition in our world.

if TC is however .. dead in our world .. as we know he is .. then why is not Foul also destroyed in the Land .. if they are indeed one in the same ..

but i do not accept that they are .. they are seperate entities .. with seperate existences ..

Foul was a part of Joan .. for a while there .. and in some small way .. who knows may even still be .. if she has not overcome her own self-loathing ..

Foul is that dark-side .. or just dark-ness that many of us have to battle .. even to those in the Land .. who rightly dubbed him 'the despiser' ..

Post by **hamako** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 6:54 am

I agree with you Sky that they are both separate entities - they act independently of each other, but they are conjoined (good word or what??

) somehow so that one can't exit without the other.

the best parallel I cna think of to illustrate my thought is the Christian trinity - God Christ & the holy spirit. 3 facets of one being.

I also have this theory that TC is also the central hub of the Land.

Why? - well he's wild magic, the cornerstone of everything. He got leprosy at the same poit that Kevin desecrated the land. Foul pitched up in the Land at the same time that TC's leprosy was developing.

THe big one for me is the flaw in creation scenrio - Foul being TC's flaw. The flaw is shown in our world as leprosy: in the land as Foul.

THere's no cure for it, jsut the death of the host. So by this logic Foul couldn't cross into our world if TC is dead. However, not too sure about the implications in the LAnd - TC continues in some spritiual form; so does Foul. Can't be any other way. UNLESS - somehow the whole process has excised Foul, and we have another protagaonist.

THis is getting a bit freeform I know, but it's 7.45 am here, I've just got up after a bad night

Mhoram saw the close knit link between FOul & TC and there are too many pointers to it in the series.

Where's Mouseglove - we need SRD's defintive answer!!

Post by **Earthfriend** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:06 pm

Maybe i'm a bieng a bit dense, but i always saw Foul as the Creator's other half - not TC's.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:51 pm

At least as far as the First Chronicles go, the duality of the "internal" and "external" explanations was a critical part of TC's relationship w/ the Creator and Foul. So, while Foul and the Creator were the two sides of the same coin in the "external" explanation, Foul and the Creator were both reflections of TC's own capacity for hope and dispair in the "internal" explanation.

In the Second Chronicles, it appears that the focus shifted to LA's own capacity for hope and dispair. So, I guess it is no longer so important which explanation is "real" but that both explanations exist at the same time.

Did that make sense?

Post by **Earthfriend** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 2:28 am

Perfectly, UVS!

And i get how Foul and the Creator are present in everyone - everybody has 'good' and 'evil' in them. That's kind of what i meant by both the Creator and Foul being two halves of the same coin...

In the IEW, the possibility that Covenant was imagining the Land is compromised by the fact that the story is told from another POV - HT's. As reader's, we are privy to info that Covenant couldn't know, because he wasn't there. Therefore, the Land must be 'real'.

So therefore, Foul must be 'real', not just an extension of Covenant's self-loathing. Though it is certainly TC's self-hatred that makes him vulnerable to Foul's machinations.

Post by **colemric** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:17 pm

Hi, new user here

Apologies if this idea has already been aired, but I personally suspect that the ultimate conclusion to the Harry Potter books will turn out to be a mirror of the TC/Foul dichotomy - ie Harry will only "defeat" Voldemort by accepting that they are inextricably linked to each other, with the result that both have to "die". At the end of the day, the only way an author can kill off such massively popular characters is by, er, killing them off . . . I wonder if Donaldson has patented the concept?!
I know that some readers of this forum will dismiss Harry Potter as not being in TC's league (and I agree) but there are some very interesting parallels between the two series. Far be it from me to suggest just a hint of plagiarism, but . . .
One thing JK Rowling deserves a lot of respect for is to have placed her "fantasy" books about magical powers within the context of "children's" literature, which somehow makes it acceptable to a whole load of people who (as we all know) would never dream of taking science fiction seriously. This has probably added about 500 million extra sales to the books! Smart lady . . .
Any thoughts on this

Post by **Skyweir** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:26 pm

welcome colemric .. be welcome and true ..

The Harry Potter books are great .. and themes in fantasy commonly overlap .. I dont see any evidence of plagiarism .. nor do I with the oft lauded Tolkien/SRD comparison .. to me themes utilised that relate to magic or alter ego's/ arch nemeses etc .. are up for grabs imho ..

The defeat of an arch nemeis by acceptance is not a new or even unique theme .. and one used over and over .. and makes me think of Dr Who and his battle with his nemesis ..

Anyway .. I think she's a great childrens author .. and does deserve the respect she receives ..

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch