There be spoilers aplenty here for the Second Chronicles.
I'm about halfway through _The One Tree_ again, and I'm
kind of struck by how just providential everything was. Here's
what I mean:
The ur-viles make Vain ... but Vain would be useless without an
Elohim to merge with. How did the ur-viles know that the Elohim
would Appoint someone to bear the doom of sacrificing his or her
selfhood to Vain?
More to the point, why did the countless thousands of years
of ur-vile lore lead to creating Vain? If there had not been a
Sunbane, what would Vain's purpose have been? How would
he have fulfilled the Weird of the ur-viles?
Somehow, the ur-viles manage to give Vain to Saltheart
Foamfollower ... and Foamfollower is persuaded to accept
him to pass him onto Covenant. Perhaps Mhoram foresaw
that Vain would be needed to save the Land.
Caer-Caveral knew where the _One Tree_ was, but he deliberately
made this knowledge inaccessible to Covenant so that he would
go to the Elohim. How did the Forestal know the Giants of the Search
were coming to the Land? (I figure that the knowledge of the One
Tree's location is part of the Forestals Elohim-derived knowledge,
but the power and influence of the Forestals is limited or they would
have left the woods to destroy humans wherever they went in the
Land way back in the beginning.)
If Covenant and Company hadn't met the lurker ... if the skrest had
not attacked when they did, Covenant might missed the Giants ...
and they would have gone into the Land where they would have been
warped by the Sunbane. Covenant would not have found a way to
leave the Land to go in search of the One Tree.
I actually understand the purpose of the Quest for the One Tree.
The Quest had to pick up an Elohim and Linden had to toughen up
... and Covenant had to lose any hope of being able to both save the
Land and preserve his own life.
And yet, for all that, it still would have failed if Holian had not died
and Sunder had not been driven to kill Caer-Caveral.
There was either a lot of predestination or a lot of scheming going on.
Or maybe both.
Was it all meant to be, do you think? Predestination? Or was this all
a strategy, perhaps devised by the erstwhile Hile Troy? Did the
Warmark finally make to score a decisive victory against Lord Foul?
[/code]
The Power of Luck (Spoilers for the 2nd Chronicles)
Moderators: Orlion, kevinswatch
I just thought I wood comment on a couple of things, so all of you who are not Forestaal will better understand us.
And yet, it is not quite as simple as that, because each tree, bush, and grass also had a life of its own. But I am at a loss as to how to explain the paradox of one life/many lives to beings who live otherwise. Let us move on.
The One Forest was aware, conscious. This consciousness was also other than yours. When the sun was shining directly above one part of its body, it was just rising over another. Who wood expect its consciousness to be the same as yours? In ways, because of the distances, and the nature of its being, it was a slower awareness. But it was also deeper. It felt its own connection with the Earthpower very intimately. And with this connection came great knowledge. Regarding plant life, it knew all that the Earthpower knew. Including the location of the One Tree. How could the One Forest not know the One Tree?
What the Elohim Appointed did was to give the One Forest the knowledge of how to manipulate the Earthpower. First, it used this knowledge to make the Colossus of the Fall. That was all that was needed to keep the Ravers away. And for a time, there was peace again. During that time of peace, the One Forest came to understand other ways to use the Earthpower.
Unfortunately, it was not enough to protect against humans. Humans are numerous, and never stop destroying. The One Forest created us, but only after much damage had been done. And there are limits, of a sort:
But how can I prevent a human from shooting a flaming arrow at my trees from outside? Yes, I can make the wood invulnerable to the fire. I can also make it invulnerable to an axe. But hundreds of flames and blades at once are another matter. If they bring any number of flames and blades into me, I prevail. Like the One Forest, I am one life, and all of my plant life is my body. But working from outside, the humans were able to chip away at me, bit by bit. I cannot know where they all stand, and, therefore, cannot know which trees to strengthen.
And then there is the Ritual of Desecration!
In the beginning, the One Forest was a single, massive life. Just as most of you have a body made up of hands with fingers, feet with toes, arms, legs, heart, lungs, eyes, and on and on, but are a single life, so the uncountable number of trees, bushes, and grass were the body of the single life known as the One Forest.KaosArcana wrote:I figure that the knowledge of the One Tree's location is part of the Forestals Elohim-derived knowledge,
And yet, it is not quite as simple as that, because each tree, bush, and grass also had a life of its own. But I am at a loss as to how to explain the paradox of one life/many lives to beings who live otherwise. Let us move on.
The One Forest was aware, conscious. This consciousness was also other than yours. When the sun was shining directly above one part of its body, it was just rising over another. Who wood expect its consciousness to be the same as yours? In ways, because of the distances, and the nature of its being, it was a slower awareness. But it was also deeper. It felt its own connection with the Earthpower very intimately. And with this connection came great knowledge. Regarding plant life, it knew all that the Earthpower knew. Including the location of the One Tree. How could the One Forest not know the One Tree?
What the Elohim Appointed did was to give the One Forest the knowledge of how to manipulate the Earthpower. First, it used this knowledge to make the Colossus of the Fall. That was all that was needed to keep the Ravers away. And for a time, there was peace again. During that time of peace, the One Forest came to understand other ways to use the Earthpower.
Unfortunately, it was not enough to protect against humans. Humans are numerous, and never stop destroying. The One Forest created us, but only after much damage had been done. And there are limits, of a sort:
Say, rather, the sphere of influence is limited. That is, limited to the Forest. After all, a Forestal is its Forest, and I cannot operate outside of myself any more than an ocean elemental can destroy an army marching in the desert. Within myself, though, the limit of my power is higher than a human is capable of noticing.KaosArcana wrote:but the power and influence of the Forestals is limited or they would have left the woods to destroy humans wherever they went in the Land way back in the beginning
But how can I prevent a human from shooting a flaming arrow at my trees from outside? Yes, I can make the wood invulnerable to the fire. I can also make it invulnerable to an axe. But hundreds of flames and blades at once are another matter. If they bring any number of flames and blades into me, I prevail. Like the One Forest, I am one life, and all of my plant life is my body. But working from outside, the humans were able to chip away at me, bit by bit. I cannot know where they all stand, and, therefore, cannot know which trees to strengthen.
And then there is the Ritual of Desecration!
Last edited by Taiga Tzu on Sun Jul 13, 2003 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
One wide forest of sentience and passion filled all the region - one mind and heart alive in every leaf and bough of every tree among the many myriad throngs and glory of the woods.
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[Syl]
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I think it might be a little more than luck and a little less than predetermination. The dead and Caer Caveral had a plan, and I think their planning ability is somewhat akin to Foul's manipulations.
On Vain's creation I can't really say. The only thing I can kind of guess to compare it to is the forming of a scab or such in response to a wound.
As far as The Search goes, I think the timing of it all was due in large part to Seadreamer's Earthsense. His vision compelled the search to be where it was and when.
I'd like to think that Troy had a very large part in the overall scheme of what happened. I think he had a lot of help (who knows exactly how much was planned by the dead?), but still. It makes Atiaran's sacrifice worthwhile.
On Vain's creation I can't really say. The only thing I can kind of guess to compare it to is the forming of a scab or such in response to a wound.
As far as The Search goes, I think the timing of it all was due in large part to Seadreamer's Earthsense. His vision compelled the search to be where it was and when.
I'd like to think that Troy had a very large part in the overall scheme of what happened. I think he had a lot of help (who knows exactly how much was planned by the dead?), but still. It makes Atiaran's sacrifice worthwhile.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
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Earthfriend
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Fist and Faith
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Good points Syl. I particularly like "The dead and Caer Caveral had a plan, and I think their planning ability is somewhat akin to Foul's manipulations."
Although running into the Search was, if viewed in one way, an amazing bit of luck, I imagine Covenant would have found another boat somewhere or other. But he wouldn't have found better companions than the Giants!
I think that luck, in general, depends on which end you're looking from. In the Watchmen comic book, Dr. Manhattan mentioned that if you go back in time 100,000 years, and think about the matings that will be necessary to produce you in the future, it's impossible. This caveman and this cavewoman have to mate at this exact time so that this specific sperm and egg meet, so they will produce that particular ancestor. And that ancestor is one of many in that generation. All the others of that generation are the result of their parents having mated at exactly the right time also. Now that generation has to pair off the right way, at the right times. And on through the generations, where one of your great great great great grandfathers cheated on his wife, and the woman he cheated with had your great great great grandmother. And maybe your great great grandmother was on vacation in Paris, got hit by a man riding a horse, she fell in love with her doctor, and their mating at the exact right moment produced your great grandfather.
It doesn't seem remotely possible that any of us could exist, if we look at it from that direction. But somebody has to exist, and it happens to be me and you. And maybe Covenant's journey would have been completely different, but he would have had one journey or another.
I have no idea if my comparison is too far off to have any meaning. It makes sense in my head, but difficult to get it out.
Although running into the Search was, if viewed in one way, an amazing bit of luck, I imagine Covenant would have found another boat somewhere or other. But he wouldn't have found better companions than the Giants!
I think that luck, in general, depends on which end you're looking from. In the Watchmen comic book, Dr. Manhattan mentioned that if you go back in time 100,000 years, and think about the matings that will be necessary to produce you in the future, it's impossible. This caveman and this cavewoman have to mate at this exact time so that this specific sperm and egg meet, so they will produce that particular ancestor. And that ancestor is one of many in that generation. All the others of that generation are the result of their parents having mated at exactly the right time also. Now that generation has to pair off the right way, at the right times. And on through the generations, where one of your great great great great grandfathers cheated on his wife, and the woman he cheated with had your great great great grandmother. And maybe your great great grandmother was on vacation in Paris, got hit by a man riding a horse, she fell in love with her doctor, and their mating at the exact right moment produced your great grandfather.
It doesn't seem remotely possible that any of us could exist, if we look at it from that direction. But somebody has to exist, and it happens to be me and you. And maybe Covenant's journey would have been completely different, but he would have had one journey or another.
I have no idea if my comparison is too far off to have any meaning. It makes sense in my head, but difficult to get it out.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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danlo
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Good point Syl! (I have always thought that the wraiths r Elohim, in deep passage--perhaps Chant got slightly singed by an ur-vile? 
) 
I love this quote Taiga! I think I'll put it up on my refrigerator!
) I love this quote Taiga! I think I'll put it up on my refrigerator! After all, a Forestal is its Forest, and I cannot operate outside of myself any more than an ocean elemental can destroy an army marching in the desert.
fall far and well Pilots!
You are ever the gracious one.