The Mahdoubt

[wayfriend]

... What colors are Esmer's eyes?

[native]

Esmer's eyes are "the deep and running green of dangerous seas."

[native]

Incidently if the Mahdoubt is a merewife, it would account for why Kastenessen stopped the Demondin levelling Revelstone. His child is in there.

Parenthood seems to be a theme of this chronicle.

[native]

Ok I thought I'd gather up some of the quotes and thoughts that make me think more and more that the Mahdoubt is the merewife mother of Esmer. Obviously all speculation but it seems to have some merit....

Esmer: "The dancers of the sea loath the love they call forth."

Compare this with...

Mahdoubt: "Be cautious of love. It misleads. There is a glamour upon it that binds the heart to destruction."

The merewives and the Mahdoubt share the same philosophy, do they not? But the merewives live in an ocean far far away. Here's a hint from the author that they don't....

Linden: "'They aren't exactly here you know....' As far as she knew -"

If that's not a foreshadowing hint then I don't know what is.

So why go to Revelstone? Well this merewife has borne a child by Cail. But did she also find a kindred spirit whom she could finally love, only to lose him to the sea or to his mortality? The merewives and the haruchai do anyway seem to have a lot in common, even to the point of now sharing a common agenda on earthpower...

Esmer: "The desires of the merewives are compulsory, as are the passions of Cail my father. That which lies hidden within the old man displeases the Dancers of the Sea."

Compare this with Stave: "We do not permit such beings as Anele to work their will."

And what about the Mahdoubt herself. Well we've commented on her eyes. But what about her cloak?

Findail: "...they are the descendants and inheritors of the woman whom Kastenessen loved - that she took with her the power and knowledge which she gained from him, and also the daughters of all men-betrayed women, and set herself and them to seek restitution from all men who abandon their homes in the name of the sea."

and what does a merewife do with her victim/lover except sew a little patch of them into her cloak

Mahdoubt: "Does the wonder of my gown please you?....Every scrap was given to the Mahdoubt in gratitude and woven together in love...."

to which Liand comments "That it is woven in love cannot be mistaken...the gratitude is less plain to me." Of course the victims would be lovers according to a merewife's definition but would hardly be grateful for being drowned.....The Mahdoubt's reply is ominous for Linden. "Matters of apparel are the province of women. The lady grasps the presence of gratitude. And if she does not...yet she will." Is Linden going to have to destroy that which she loves too? A ritual of desecration?

And if you need any more convincing, here's some symbolism for you: "From within her miswoven robe she produced a flagon of water which she thrust unceremoniously at Linden....she drank deeply she began to feel somewhat stronger."

She gives Linden water. What else would a merewife have in her cloak?

Now I recognise this is the usual supposition piled on speculation which this forum specialises in ...but still, it feels possible.

[Khat]

Native - this is really pretty good stuff! The only idea that I have a difficult time with is that I think of merewives as being 'sea-bound'. However if she is a land person like Cail, you would think that she would have more physical appearances of the Haruchai.
All in all a really good post! You had to do a bit of page turning to get all that!

[native]

I think of merewives as being 'sea-bound'.

C'mon - you never seen the little mermaid? That was a love story too

[Khat]

Yes I also saw "Splash"

OK you got a point there - "The desires of the merewives are compulsory" In other words they MAY go to great lengths -- the Madoubt could be a merewife -- then again could she be "the woman whom Kastenessen loved - that she took with her the power and knowledge which she gained from him" ...
allowing her to be almost immortal??

Maybe Kastenessen was able to break his durance when he learned that she was still in the land...

[native]

the Madoubt could be a merewife -- then again could she be "the woman whom Kastenessen loved

Quite possibly, but recall too the author's own words on the subject:

"RK: Madness is important to you – your characters tend to live on the edge.

Stephen Donaldson: Most of them, yes, but there are others like Liand whose point is that he is an ordinary moral man caught up in events. Or like the Mahdoubt, who just has her housekeeping job to do and does it.

RK: Rather like the Shadout Mapes in Dune, in fact.

Stephen Donaldson: Names are very important to the way I feel my way into who characters are. And yes, there is a memory of the Shadout Mapes in the Mahdoubt's name for that reason."

www.orionbooks.co.uk/interview.aspx?ID=11373

The Mahdoubt, it seems, is an ordinary woman of the land, but one who still knows the score. And we all know what happens to mermaids who live on land. They are reborn as ordinary humans with a voice but with no power.

In that context note that the Mahdoubt says she can "no longer recall her first youth." Odd phrase, that. How many youths has she had?

But this could all be rubbish. I picked up a very interesting review on Amazon.com that also had great resonance and shows you can contruct whatever you like around these tales. That's what makes them rather good...

"Already in this book, Donaldson lays a couple of hints for what might become important later on: the emphasis he is placing on being willing to listen (note that everywhere Linden goes, people are relating her stories, often at odd and inappropriate times--suggesting that this tendency *in and of itself* is something Donaldson wants us to pay attention to; also that Covenant himself tells her that she needs to "listen" in a dream), the idea of gratitude motivating community contribution (note that Linden and her hospital in the real world are financed in large part by a patchwork of volunteer services provided by a grateful community, and compare this to the dress of the Mahdoubt, composed of patches of fabric given her by grateful members of Revelstone--which may serve to set up a symbolic equivalency between Linden and the Mahdoubt); the emphasis on partial blindness or sight (Kevin's Dirt robbing the Land members of their health sense; the Mahdoubt having one normal eye and one orange eye; Stave losing an eye, Bhapa and his cataract in one eye which Linden is able to heal). When Donaldson hammers on points like this it's usually because they're going to be significant down the line"

www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1 ... 45-4736601

[wayfriend]

Or like the Mahdoubt, who just has her housekeeping job to do and does it.

All he is saying is that the Mahdoubt is someone who is not living on the edge of madness. I don't think we should imply from this that she is ordinary. Certainly, the comment about seeing someone else for a moment satisfies me, if nothing else, that there's something up.

I wonder what the date of the interview was. Was Runes finished?

For Donaldson remarks that one of his characters suprised him as he was writing it.

[native]

Certainly, the comment about seeing someone else for a moment satisfies me, if nothing else, that there's something up.

Yeah well a bit of earthpower could be normal in Revelstone. But in truth I don't believe it either. I think it very likely she's Esmer's mother, but that's just my instinct in relation to the flow of the overall narrative. It's not quite compulsory, but almost, in narrative terms, having introduced Esmer, to include the Merewives as well. They link Esmer to Kastenessen, who we know is going to be a big player if not THE big player.

[Khat]

This thread get's better and better.
If the Mahdoubt, who just has her housekeeping job to do and does it; was only considered an ordinary character
I don't think we, as readers would be so curious about her.
And I really think this was one of the Characters that surprised SRD!

[drew]

I wonder who Mahrtiir thought the Mahdoubt was, when he thought he saw something else in her.

My first thought, was something similar to the Elohim, or Esmer (as we have disscussed here) but wouldn't Linden have noticed the same thing?

It got me wondering, who, or what, would the Ramen know about, that Linden wouldn't?

The only thing I can come up with is Kel...brabbanal--you know, the father of the horses.

This might...okay this is a real streatch; but with all the broken laws, is it not possible for the spirit of the Kel posses someone?

I honestly doubt that this is the case--but does anyone have any ideas who, or what, the Ramen might have thought about when they met her..?

[amanibhavam]

You think that a Raman sees the Father of Horses, ancestor of all-beloved-admired-served Ranyhyn and stays so quiet and stoical about it?

[wayfriend]

I think that Mahrtiir saw whatever he saw in the Mahdoubt simply because of his prowess as a Ramen (tracking wolves, peering through mountain mists, etc.). I am certain that every single Haruchai in that keep has seen what Mahrtiir has seen, and they're not saying anything. Linden might see it eventually, but if she can't, it's because she doesn't have the discernment of the Ramen or the Haruchai.

I don't think the Mahdoubt's secret identity is anyone particularly Ramenish.

[Borillar]

Apologies if this was already mentioned earlier in this thread, but does anyone think that the Haruchai react to the Mahdoubt the same way they acted towards Amok?

That's it, I'm declaring the Mahdoubt to be the Sixth Ward.

[finn]

Agree, the Haruchai are likely to be aware of whatever or whoever is contained within the Mahdoubt. They allow 'her' to roam Revelstone freely and Mahrtiir clearly see no threat in her, the fact that he demonstrates some recognition may lead one to a couple of conclusions.

Firstly he recognises the presence, this strongly suggests that he has had some prior experience, if it were an aspect of TC how would he know, he's never seen TC. Therefore it must be someone/something that is within his experience, otherwise the reaction does not gel.

Secondly, what/whoever is involved is esssensially not malign. If that was the case Mahrtiir (especially) would have reacted rather differently than just being mildly suprised.

So who or what does that leave?

What would be recognisable to a Ramen who has spent the bulk if not all his life in the plains, but would not evoke more than mild curiosity when recognised?

Elohim perhaps?

Elohim imprisoned inside the Mahdoubt? SRD uses words carefully, Mahdoubt is a similar word to redoubt.

Maybe her housekeeping includes not allowing stray Elohim (or whatever) to roam the halls of Revelstone, or indeed the land willi nilly.

[Warmark]

Apologies if this was already mentioned earlier in this thread, but does anyone think that the Haruchai react to the Mahdoubt the same way they acted towards Amok?

That's it, I'm declaring the Mahdoubt to be the Sixth Ward.

Possible, i suppose, and handy aswell. Seen as the Sixth Ward tell how to reegnite the Krill, it would be useful with all the demomdim running about.

[drew]

..so how many theroys are we up to now..?

[amanibhavam]

Apologies if this was already mentioned earlier in this thread, but does anyone think that the Haruchai react to the Mahdoubt the same way they acted towards Amok?

That's it, I'm declaring the Mahdoubt to be the Sixth Ward.

Possible, i suppose, and handy aswell. Seen as the Sixth Ward tell how to reegnite the Krill, it would be useful with all the demomdim running about.

My problem with this theory is that if The Mahdoubt were a Ward, she would be a made (Kevin-made) thing, and Linden would be able to perceive her as not-living.

[drew]

Chances are slim, that Kevin made more than one ward as a person...why if he could have made all these people, he could have just an entire army to attack Foul's Creche.