Most Annoying Character...

[lurch]

Whoa there pardner!!...Complaining??...I don't think so..True,, I took the opportunity provided by this thread to make a turn in the " assumed" inside the box discussion,,and go obtuse with it,,but far be it of complaining.
...I also can't go with your " elderly couple" analogy. While I understand what you are saying, it doesn't apply. I used the " Nun" analogy. Her God appears to be TC. There are plenty of folks who worship their God, for no other,,but they also have secular and physical relationships with human beings of their existance. Granted, TC took her to an understanding of herself and showed her how to overcome and renew,,That lesson may have been the most valuable lesson she had learned,,but,,A) its not the only lesson of life,,b),,seems to have missed some the overall point about renewing and overcoming. Ideals are great, but you have to Live in the real world...oh oh..the Donaldson dichotomy..chaos and order. The way she puts order to everything,,yeaa...she needs some chaos fluffing up her skirt.
..What i am suggesting is not a complaint but an observation that leads me to think of what is the author up to here, how does it fit with the other elements of the series and how it may unfold in the future..For rite now..its based on what I do see And what I don't see, but should be there..There fore the conflict, and thence(?) a path of plot and theme..MEL

[burgs]

It's hardly an imperative that every single person on the planet *needs* to get laid. As in all human emotions, it runs the gamut from those that need it so badly that they are sex addicts, to those who are quite content to spend decades of their lives dedicated to self stimulation, or perhaps no stimulation whatsoever. Everyone's needs are different.

And, as said above, her bond with Covenant transcends everything else. No fireman...fireman...fireman...fireman...or anyone else could possibly have filled the hole that Covenant left in her heart.

[dlbpharmd]

Hey Burgs! Where've you been? You've been missed!

[lurch]

...Again..in a sense I am agreeing with you..but taking it to the next step..Who Hasn't Had Their Heart Broken?,,experienced A Hole In Their Heart?..and ,,what has most of us done in normal fashion.?..In some frame of time,,gotten over it!,,Healed the wound!...Moved ON!..Linden hasn't done so.
...Speakin about movin on..let me take it up a notch. Because she hasn't moved on,,and even to a degree,,had the audacity to assume the Pyschologists role while being only qualified as a doctor of medicine, with the Patient Joan,,she now finds herself in the Land trying to get her son back from Foullekers,,while possibly being dead in the real world, with Toms son very likely dead and Tom's ex- very likely dead also...but both of rampant consequences in the Land....now...just how judiscous is Linden going to be in the dissemenation of all this to her " Lover" and exactly just how Loving and compassionate is the guy whos been lounging in his barco-lounger of an Arch for the last 3000 years going to be when he hears of his son's and ex-es fate.?...All because,,Linden couldn't plug the hole in her heart,,heal...and move on...MEL

[CovenantJr]

...and ,,what has most of us done in normal fashion.?..In some frame of time,,gotten over it!,,Healed the wound!...Moved ON!..Linden hasn't done so.

Perhaps. But most of us haven't witnessed both of our parents die horribly in front of us (and worse), then later been mysteriously transported to an impossible world where we've been forced to do battle with evil incarnate, rebuild nature, and let the person we love most sacrifice their life.

We can't judge Linden by most people's standards, because "most people" haven't lived her life.

[I'm Murrin]

CovJr, are you defending Linden Avery?

[CovenantJr]

Hell no! I'm opposing Lurch, and as the saying goes, "the enemy of my enemy..."


Anyway, I meant to respond to the rest of that post...

exactly just how Loving and compassionate is the guy whos been lounging in his barco-lounger of an Arch for the last 3000 years going to be when he hears of his son's and ex-es fate.?...All because,,Linden couldn't plug the hole in her heart,,heal...and move on...

We're talking about Thomas Covenant. If indeed Roger and Joan were to die, and if indeed he felt incandescent rage about it, he wouldn't blame Linden; he would, as we've seen many times, blame himself.



(And I second that "welcome back" to the long-missed Burgs66 )

[lurch]

..Again ..I understand what is being said..he would blame himself..yeaa, but there is a nuance to the question that..in a sense,,there is no " Up" answer. Its a classic Donaldson situation..there is no " agreeable" answer where nobody gets hurt. Remember,,he is her saviour,,andnow, he may blame himself...ammm..not good for a Saviour Image..
..This brings me to another thread about Joan being a Leper...no..its not Joan...its Linden. Linden has the guilt of Leprosy inherited from Tom. Staying in the small Town, being responsible for Joan, adopting Jeremiah,,all because she fell in love with her " saviour".

..Yes, the story is being written the way it is. Linden has an arc to travel. Linden is in the Land and exhibits a cool collected thoughtful character. Yet, her physicality..is mocked rite from the first. Without hurtloam, without aliantha, without vim,,she is a out of shape, quickly exhausted, slapped around, abused, and victimized by her own physical condition. Perhaps she chose those hiking boots because they were so little used.
...Linden has forced the change on all the other characters sofar. There is no way I will believe that the author will let the main character stay unaltered. She has not even begun to realize the implications of Foulekers proclamation," you are already mine". She was given an example of sacrifice that should have inspired her to get over the hideous despair of her history and live a new life. Her new life became a Love affair of the example. Net growth= almost zero...She fell in Love with a dead man..quite the metaphor...........MEL

[ur-bane]

..Again ..I understand what is being said..he would blame himself..yeaa, but there is a nuance to the question that..in a sense,,there is no " Up" answer. Its a classic Donaldson situation..there is no " agreeable" answer where nobody gets hurt. Remember,,he is her saviour,,andnow, he may blame himself...ammm..not good for a Saviour Image..

That's the TC we know and love, though. There is power in guilt.
I agree that there is no "up" answer--another thing that I like about SRD's writing. It adds a bit of "realism" if you will, to the fantasy. Makes it more believable IMHO. It adds a connection between us as readers and Linden and TC.

..This brings me to another thread about Joan being a Leper...no..its not Joan...its Linden. Linden has the guilt of Leprosy inherited from Tom. Staying in the small Town, being responsible for Joan, adopting Jeremiah,,all because she fell in love with her " saviour".

Linden's guilt was established long before she met TC. But that is not really her defining characteristic. Linden needs to be needed. There's the fundamental difference between Linden and TC. TC never needed to be involved the way Linden does. Linden needs to care, to help. That is her way of defeating the legacy of her parents.
In a nutshell: Linden's needs grew from external sources and conflicts whereas TC's character is rife with and defined by internal conflict.

..Yes, the story is being written the way it is. Linden has an arc to travel. Linden is in the Land and exhibits a cool collected thoughtful character. Yet, her physicality..is mocked rite from the first. Without hurtloam, without aliantha, without vim,,she is a out of shape, quickly exhausted, slapped around, abused, and victimized by her own physical condition. Perhaps she chose those hiking boots because they were so little used.

Sounds a bit like someone else we know. What kind of success would TC have had if the Land did not sustain him the way it did?

...Linden has forced the change on all the other characters sofar. There is no way I will believe that the author will let the main character stay unaltered. She has not even begun to realize the implications of Foulekers proclamation," you are already mine". She was given an example of sacrifice that should have inspired her to get over the hideous despair of her history and live a new life. Her new life became a Love affair of the example. Net growth= almost zero...She fell in Love with a dead man..quite the metaphor...........MEL

I don't quite follow you here. What change? Previously you stated that Linden has not changed...that she is still living in the past, loving a dead man...inheriting a legacy of leprosy.

I agree with you 100% however that Linden will not remain unaltered. Just as our perceptions of TC were altered (many times, back and forth, I might add)...so will our perceptions of Linden. Not only that, but she will change/adapt/grow/learn (hopefully) within the text of the stories.
Don't you just love the fact that SRD's characters are almost never stagnant? Rather they evolve/change right along with the tale.

[CovenantJr]

There's the fundamental difference between Linden and TC. TC never needed to be involved the way Linden does. Linden needs to care, to help. That is her way of defeating the legacy of her parents.
In a nutshell: Linden's needs grew from external sources and conflicts whereas TC's character is rife with and defined by internal conflict.

And that may be why I identify more with Covenant.

Don't you just love the fact that SRD's characters are almost never stagnant? Rather they evolve/change right along with the tale.

I certainly do. One of SRD's great achievments - characters that live. It's actually quite rare.

[NightBlaze]

...thinking of joining the fray here. Linden has a capacity for love, but rather than that love be with another possible aduly, taking care of Jerry seems to fill that void for her. But even then, you get the off key reference that she knows thats not enough. There's more than one minor reference to that the way she thinks of TC wishing she could hold him again. She takes care of Jerry and everything, great! That brought a saying to mind when I was reading Runes, "sometimes what you want isnt what you need."
I knew a woman growing up (she was in her late 50's, I was a teen) that had lost her husband several years before, and she would outright SAY in front of anyone, the only reason she was alive is because she was afraid to commit suicide. She didnt want anyone in her life, she ever had kids (or if she did we never heard of them) and she was still living alone in the same old grungy house when I moved away in my 20's.
So, is Lindens situation unique? Perhaps on some small level I suppose it is. Its certainly a sad state for her to be in, but if thats what works for her, then that defines her character. Perhaps the loyalty she shows can be measured in the way the Haruchai were loyal to the lords, and later to TC, until TC's death and they became arrogant jerks.
Sorry for the long ramble.

[Roynish]

lurch you pick up on Linden's "chastity" and run with it which is fine. Its a valid tangent that is perhaps an oversight on SRD's case or a purposeful ploy or perhaps just one of those open threads that SRD continualy refers to as part of his method. I would argue that it is perhaps inconclusive to say she has had no other lover since Covenant. Or perhaps I am missing something definitive in the text that says she has not.
An interesting point of course, but I feel somehow it may be particularly irrelevant in the course of things. Do we wish to know the details of her sexual encounters and lost loves, well maybe..... I see where you are coming from in the broader sense but this is not an Updike novel, its fantasy.

[lurch]

..To answer the question...Linden is responsible for the chnage in Stave..from a Master ..to one banned from Harauchi, totally in Lindens service.
...Linden is responsible for the change in Anele. His somewhat return to sanity is all her doings. The return of the Staff of Law. The telling of the Story of the granite..( in a way..she is responsible for the inhabitants of the Land,and us becoming enlitened as to the Runes of the earth..),,Even Lord Dirty Diapers had to go thru changes because of Linden..send in the Kresh..The ramen go from leary to full acceptance..etc..etc Every body is changed except Linden..she just gets deeper (her surgery skills?)_into what she already is. She tries to get all those opposed to her,,to be on her side. And the One Fool, who is already on her side( you are already mine)..she tries to shake loose...Foul.

....Fascinating is Esmer...when hes in her presense..she has no power...He is Change,,constant change..the duality of the consequences of Change..indeed,,she has no Power over him..with the Ring anyway...I don't really want to say this,,but ...if there is to be Sex in this series,,i'd say between those two is where it could possibly fit,,in plot ,,an theme..it works.The question becomes..will it be consensual or a rape?.SRD could balance the scales by making it consensual...then again...MEL..ps..strange doins..did we all hit this thread at the same time?,,anyway...Its interesting that the author went on for a bit about Sandy,,and her dating interests,,her social situation,,,but,,,nada on Linden,,,The full empahsis was on her and jerryand joan and memory of Tom...Updike !..its more like a reverse inside out Updike..Both may be talking about the modern condition tho...MEL