two niggling plot points

[Borillar]

1) In WGW, either Linden or Covenant asks Findail why Foul hasn't simply awakened the Worm himself, to which Findail responds that, lacking the ring, Foul would be destroyed along with everyone else if the Worm awoke. Yet Findail also says that the point of Foul's machinations was to set up a no-win situation for Covenant facing the Worm, in which Covenant would either rouse the Worm or destroy the Arch defeating the worm. But only one of those scenarios (destruction of the Arch) would actually work out for Foul, according to Findail's own logic...

2) At the end of WGW, after Covenant has defeated Foul, Linden reaches for the ring but Findail says "Chosen, withhold!" and tries to reach the ring first. I had thought that in terms of the priorities of the Elohim, the best scenarios were 1) Linden has the ring, so she can merge vision and power, 2) Findail gets the ring, and 3) Covenant has the ring, but is silenced from exerting power. Now, given that scenario #1 was about to happen, was Findail actually acting in a way that was contrary to the will of the Elohim, and simply trying to save his own existence?

[Warmark]

Perhaps Findail was trying to save imself, i mean if he has the ring Linden cannot make him join with Vain.

[Kevin BeerDrinker]

At some point after Findail was appointed, he turns to Vain and says something along the lines of "that fate I will not suffer." He is going to do whatever he can to avoid the outcome that Vain represents.

[wayfriend]

1) I wrote a lot of stuff about that here.

2) At this point, with Vain literally stuck on him like glue, Findail faces his imminent doom. IMO, and as Warkmark says, at this point it's about saving himself. "Whatever else you may do, that I will not suffer."

From Findail's point of view, the Linden/Ring plan means that the whole Vain/Staff thing doesn't happen. He persues that end as the Appointed, but also to save himself. But when Vain gloms on, there's no chance of it not happening any more.

If he understands at this point that Linden and Wild Magic are necessary to complete the transformation, then he may be trying to keep the ring away from Linden as much as trying to get it for himself.

[matrixman]

I'm avoiding any discussion in the Runes forum for now, but I do agree that the whole situation with the Worm is a little confusing. I guess SRD could've been a little clearer in what he was trying to say with Findail's explanation.

[wayfriend]

Runes-Spoiler-free version.

Findail's expositions on this matter are ... how shall I say it ... replete with aromatic fertilizer.

As we've both already talked about in the Dissecting the Land forum, Findail appears to contradict himself. At one point he says "If the Worm is roused, the Earth will end, freeing Despite to wreak its vengeance upon the cosmos." But later, he says, "Should [the Despiser] rouse the Worm himself, without the wild magic in his hand, would he not also be consumed in the destruction of the world?"

There aren't a whole lot of reasons for saying things like this. But telling lies and then backfilling them is one way that this can happen.

This is not the only thing that Findail is shoveling.

Here's another one: Findail says, "And if the ring-wielder attempts to match his might against the Worm, he will destroy the Arch of Time. It cannot contain such a battle!"

Wait a minute! Precisely when did the Worm start living alongside the Arch? Neither creation story, in any form, includes the other. But Findail spins a tale where they are together, like a cross-over superhero comic book. I don't think we should believe him.

Another thing: consider SRD's revelation of the necessity for Vain to get to the One Tree.

I think of the "transformation" of Vain's forearm as the catalyst which makes his later changes possible. After all, how can you possibly have a Staff of Law that doesn't come from the One Tree? Vain carries the true victory of the Quest for the One Tree with him when Covenant, Linden, etc. flee the sinking Isle.
(09/06/2004)

The implications of this revelation haven't been fully appreciated here at the Watch, I feel. For one thing, it follows that the ur-viles and the Dead who created Vain and gave him to Covenant planned on Covenant getting to the One Tree, and furthermore they planned on Covenant not destroying the Earth by rousing the Worm. I know Donaldson says a lot about these 'plans' in the GI, but it's clear that the only way Vain could be transformed is by triggering the One Tree's defenses without destroying the Earth thereby.

Further, Foul also planned on these very same things. Foul has said, "Of your own volition you will give the white gold into my hand." And it came to pass just so. If Foul, as Findail suggested, had any plans for Covenent at Bare Isle, he must have counted the possibility that Covenent would not destroy the Earth.

Now, if the ur-viles, the Dead, and Foul all perceived this outcome, we have to ask, didn't Findail? He doesn't seem to mention this, though.

Another implication of the necessity of Vain's transformation is that Findail knew about it. If Findail knows what Vain is, and what Vain can become, he must also know about the necessary ingredient of Vain's transformation.

Of course, he doesn't mention this to anyone. Even though the topic had come up...

Bare Isle was as much a crisis for Findail as anyone else. If he turns the Quest around without Vain becoming transformed, he wins. If, however, Vain is successfully transformed, then nothing left stands between Findail and the outcome he dreads - all the pieces will be available.

So I think Findail is prevaricating his wispy pants off. He's making up a completely fabricated story. First, he tries to scare the Quest away, so that Vain cannot be transformed. Later, he's covering up what happened so that it's significance is overlooked and Covenant feels more hopeless.

[Borillar]

It is possible that Findail is prevaricating, but I sadly think it's likelier that we've spotted one of those situations that prompted SRD to state in the GI (in response to a different question I had posed to him), "I tell ya folks, internal consistency's a bitch." Here's why I think so:

There are times where Findail is mistaken. For instance, Findail states in WGW that, absent the venom, Covenant would not possess the power to threaten the Arch of Time. What we subsequently come to understand is that the venom more likely eats through the restraints Covenant has imposed upon himself, rather than actually infusing him with additional power. Findail's statement is, I believe, a product of Findail's failure to truly perceive Covenant.

But such a situation is sufficiently distinct from deliberate falsehood, and I have a harder time believing that Findail would condescend to lie to Covenant or Linden. He appears to view his wurd as both inviolate and utterly superior to any "understanding" that Covenant and Linden might have. It is true that Findail wants to intensify the pressure on Covenant to surrender the ring, which is likely why Findail refuses at every turn to directly aid the Quest, and only directly responds to Covenant's entreaties once, i.e. when Covenant is about to lose control altogether in Kemper's Pitch. But misrepresenting his understanding of the world does not appear to align with neither Findail's modus operandi nor that of the Elohim in general. The Elohim do not deceive the Quest, but also do not deign to leave the Quest with any real understanding at the Elohimfest, and Findail appears to be operating in the same manner.

[wayfriend]

There are times where Findail is mistaken.

Yes, but I cannot credit that Findail would be mistaken about his own Würd. As you said, he cares little for anyone's understanding of it. Therefore, he would think nothing of misinforming anyone. Saving himself and getting the Elohim plan on track are both sufficient motivation to lie.

[Borillar]

Yes, but I cannot credit that Findail would be mistaken about his own Würd.

Neither can I. I was just pointing out that I can chalk up other deviances in his presentations to misperceptions of Covenant and people in the Quest, but this one makes sense to me neither as a deliberate attempt to lie nor as a misunderstanding of his own wurd. Thus my basic premise that this is a "SRD error" rather than intentional.

[Thaale]

Read here. The relevant quote from Findail is:

Should he rouse the Worm himself, without the wild magic in his hand, would he not also be consumed in the destruction of the world?

That “himself” seems to imply that Foul will be safe without the Ring if the Arch is destroyed as long as he’s not right at the center of the action.

[wayfriend]

The relevant quote from Findail is:

Should he rouse the Worm himself, without the wild magic in his hand, would he not also be consumed in the destruction of the world?

That “himself” seems to imply that Foul will be safe without the Ring if the Arch is destroyed as long as he’s not right at the center of the action.

Ah, but show me the quote from the tale of the Worm of the World's End where the Worm crawls under the Arch to sleep? Or the quote where the Creator builds an Arch over the Worm? In fact, I would be pleased to discover any clue that suggests that these creation stories overlap the way Findail describes. (See the link in the third reply of this topic.)