second read of 'A Dark and Hungry God...' ~SPOILERS!

[Usivius]

whew... wow.
This book takes all leaps and turns action. There is less character development here and more plot driving...
Here are some of my point form thoughts:

- Nick has totally gone off the deep end in the beginning. Everything that has happened to him through Morn , seeming betrayal of his trusted crew (especially Mikka) and the appearance of Soar, has pushed him over the edge and he is now nearly as bad as Angus --- (remember, Angus had already sold a whole BUNCH of humans to the Amnion years ago...).

- By page 88 & 89, where Nick is giving Morn over to the Amnion, and they ‘force’ Nick to answer the question “Why did you come to Enablement Station”, the crux of how far Nick had gone and possibly may have turned out to be a ‘nice’ guy is revealed. The answer why he risked so much to see the Amnion again to have her son ‘force-grown’? … love. Granted, it is not the pure, virgin, nice love we all like to think about (don’t we?), but it is, what I believe (and interpret as far as SRD writes about it), the beginning of a better path for Nick. But as we stated before, this is a greek tragedy, and things are not meant to be so easy… Nick totally 'loses it' and becomes a huge wrench in everything that follows in this book.

-Poor Morn. Yah, she's a zone addict, but she is such a fighter and her moral inclinations are so rock steady that even in her weakest moments she is thinking of saving 'bad' people from the greater evil of the Amnion. And the description of her when Angus frees her is heart-wrenching...
I just want to appear in that scene and yell bloody murder at Nick and Angus for bringing her to this point

- And Soar... I can't recall what happens to her in the later books, but, MAN, do I want someone to kick her can! (I know it's not Nick ... that loser is on a spiralling path to the bowels of humanity...)

-the action and tension is great! Love it all.

-Holt vs. Warden. I love Warden -- in a purely platonic sense of course... He reminds me so much of King Joyce. His appearance (a slightly larger version) and motives and plans... And as I remember, one of my favourites is Min. Great strong character. I wish there was more on her. Although SRD writes great female parts, and some of them on the surface are so very similar (Mikka, Soar, Min) they erally are not. Strong, yes, but driven by completely different motives and reactions. They are truly complete characters even thought 'secondary'.

- Angus.... hmmm, still can't feel sorry for him. Yah, he is linked to Morn, but I can't see it as love in any fashion beyond a 'love' for a toy lost. Like Morn's addiction of her zone implant, he has become an addict of HER. And his forced programming only instill the 'need' further. I think it becomes impossible for Angus to make the destinction between real need/love and addiction.
The comment in another posting stating that Warden, Angus and Milo all started in guttergangs but grew up through their own choices and paths, to completely different lives from each other. The same holds true for 'blaming' Angus' violent and criminal path on his horrible experiences as a child. I think I would have felt more sympathy for Angus if he had made the redemption of his past by his own will, not programming and a 'twisted' notion that he loves Mrn because he had the best sex ever with Morn, could do anything he wished to her, and then she later didn't break their bargain once he was captured. <shudder> Nope, can't sympathize with him at all............. yet. There ARE 2 books to go....


Well, that's all I got for now.

[Sorus]

- And Soar... I can't recall what happens to her in the later books, but, MAN, do I want someone to kick her can! (I know it's not Nick ... that loser is on a spiralling path to the bowels of humanity...)

Spoiler

Actually was Nick, though indirectly.

[Nathan]

Angus.... hmmm, still can't feel sorry for him.

How can you not feel sorry for someone who was treated the way he was as a child?

[Usivius]

How can you not feel sorry for someone who was treated the way he was as a child?

... I am terribly horrified that it happened to him, and feel sympathy for the child-Angus, but I (so far) cannot feel any sympathy for him because of the choises he made in his life as an adult.
I know I would need much more space than this to go in to the philosophical reasons, but in a nutshell, it boils down to choise. Are you the type of person who commits atrocities because atrocities were committed against you, or are you the type of person who finds the strength and will to rise above it and become better in spite of your past.
As stated before, three potent characters all came from guttergangs, but not all became the same person. Warden Dios as made the brave choices to rise himself above those beginnings.
Now it has alrady been stated that Angus is a coward; it is implied that it is the marrow of his character, and this is why he was 'doomed' to be the horrible, despicable character he is. For me, regardless of what selfless acts he commits later in the novels to atone for his past, and regardless if I may admire the act, I cannot feel pity or sorrow for his character ... partially because of the way his is written. He may 'change' not because he found the will and strength to change, but because, a) he is a coward and he had no choice, and b) he was 'welded' and programmed to act a certain 'heroic' way. It is my opinion that his programming, similar to Morn's zone implant need, becomes a part of his phyche, whereby he cannot descern between his own independant thought and MOTIVES and the programming.

I just started 'Order and Chaos', so let's see where my emotions take me on this tragic and entertaining ride... again.

[Nathan]

Are not victims deserving of pity despite their own inadequacies? You seem to view his earlier experiences as some kind of "pre-crime punishment" for his actions later in life.

If those things hadn't happened he wouldn't be what he is now. He's a victim in every way, punished by the cops for the life his mother forced him into.

[Usivius]

Are not victims deserving of pity despite their own inadequacies? You seem to view his earlier experiences as some kind of "pre-crime punishment" for his actions later in life.

Ahhh! no way!
Victims are deserved of pity ... up to the point where they start committing murder and rape and selling dozens of humans to the Amnion. Then their character is loathed and hated.
Yes, the terrible actions committed against Angus as a child are loathsome and terrible and I feel sadness and pity for the CHILD, but not the person he has become.

If those things hadn't happened he wouldn't be what he is now. He's a victim in every way, punished by the cops for the life his mother forced him into.

I can in no way agree or disagree with that, but what i am talking about is that although the cards were stacked against him because of what did happen to him as a child, it is by no means an EXCUSE for what he became. The strength of character and will that can drive someone to become better than that was not in Angus as it was in, say Warden.
In such an environment Angus found himself in, it is too easy to hurt and destroy than heal. Mikka, Vector, Sib all learn this in the beginning of Chaos & Order.... (I'm on page 70 ) They understand that a change HAS to happen. You can't always choose the 'easy' path.... The 'right' path is usually more difficult.

[Nathan]

it is by no means an EXCUSE for what he became.

Yes it is! If that's not a good enough excuse then I can't see what would be!

Can no action be excused by one performed on the actor previously, or is there some arbitrary cutoff point that you've made, that happens to include the things Angus does?

[Usivius]

arbitrary cutoff point

heh, I can see where you lead with this; and yah, unless we want to get DEEP in to philosophical discussion, concerning crimes against man, morally or just plain 'against the law'...

So, speaking subjectively for a moment, for me, there is a BIG difference between a person who steals and beats people up to 'survive' becasue of his horrible childhood, and person who steals, beats people up, murders, rapes, and other atrocities to 'survive' because he had a horrible childhood. yep, big difference...

It is the inspiring characters who, despite absolute horrors commited against them, go above these base impules that get my sympathy, pity and pride. Angus shows no inclination (outside programming, by the end of book 3) to this line of redemption. So, no, I still can't pity him.

[Nathan]

And so ends the same conversation again. It's just as much fun every time though, and I'm sure we'll enjoy having it once again when you read book 4!

[Usivius]

..yah, probably. I think much of it will do with how I am affected by the writing this time around. I know I am a different person now than I was 10 years + ago ...