Sword and Staff

[ur-monkey]

Something I've occasionally wondered about...in LFB, it states that the Lords are people who have mastered both Sword and Staff parts of Kevin's law.

Can anyone here imagine a Lord getting tricky with a Sword? They don't strike me as having been all that brawny!

Which Lord do you reckon would've come out best in a swordfighting tournament?

[High Lord Tolkien]

I don't know.
A Lord using a sword?
That would be such a step backwards as far a power levels go.

The phrase "Don't Bring A Knife To A Gun Fight" comes to mind.


But I guess the physical use of their staffs could be viewed as training from the Sword.
The sweeps and swirling of the staff in battle could have had thier start in Sword training.

.

[matrixman]

Interesting point, ur-monkey. Maybe they mastered Sword when they were younger, but turned exclusively to Staff after. And as HLT says, it would be a backward step for them to pick up the Sword again.

In LFB, I'm sure Mhoram could acquit himself well in a swordfight if he had to. Don't know about Prothall, though.

We don't really know anything about Osondrea's abilities. She just cursed a lot, as far as I remember.

In TIW, I'd pick Shetra and Verement as the best at holding their own in a swordfight. If nothing else, they've got their anger to sustain them. I think Elena would be right with them, though.

If you're asking which Lord would come out the winner if they were fighting each other...I'd place my bets on Mhoram. He shines when his back's against the wall.

[ur-monkey]

I'll go along with most of that, Matrixman. I can see Verement, Shetra and Elena whacking someone with a sword if their staffs went missing...they'd go berserk.

I reckon Callindrill could probably do himself justice as well! Mhoram's still the guy you'd put your money on, though.

I just can't see Amatin or Hyrim ever having even picked up a sword though, let alone mastered one! (Much as I love 'em!) So I don't quite buy the theory that they started off as sword-learners.

[Warmark]

I though wevetone trained for sword for the Warward and then those who could went on to staff and lordship.

[wayfriend]

I am a software engineer. For some reason, I was required to take three semesters of chemistry, including biochemistry, and four of physics, to get a degree.

Some things are the same everywhere.

Sword-Master Drinishok himself proves that there is more to The Sword than swinging around a slab of steel. "Drinishok did not look like a warrior; his thin, spidery limbs and fingers did not seem sturdy enough to handle either a sword or a bow. But three Lords and three-quarters of Troy's Warward had trained under the old Sword Elder; and his tanned forearms were laced with many white battle scars."

Also, before you consider swordplay "a step backwards", consider: how might learning The Sword in the Land, under the Oath of Peace, differ from the combat arts we have today? I am sure that there is more to the art than killing.

And Donaldson is a martial artist. He would be the first to say that there are cerebral aspects to any martial art, attitudes and even philosophies that come with the training.

Sometimes what you learn, you learn because it is a stepping stone. The Sword is a stepping stone on the path to Lordship. Perhaps small powers must be mastered, and lessons of power learned, before you can trust to weild the bigger powers rightly.

[matrixman]

Well said, Wayfriend. The Sword training might be more involved--and evolved--than I thought. Good of you to mention ol' Drinishok!

[CovenantJr]

Also, before you consider swordplay "a step backwards", consider: how might learning The Sword in the Land, under the Oath of Peace, differ from the combat arts we have today? I am sure that there is more to the art than killing.

...

Sometimes what you learn, you learn because it is a stepping stone. The Sword is a stepping stone on the path to Lordship. Perhaps small powers must be mastered, and lessons of power learned, before you can trust to weild the bigger powers rightly.

Well said.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Also, before you consider swordplay "a step backwards", consider: how might learning The Sword in the Land, under the Oath of Peace, differ from the combat arts we have today? I am sure that there is more to the art than killing.

I didn't see anyone in the Warward breaking up an ur-Vile wedge with his or her sword like Mhoram did.
Or "blow up" the Deep with a sword.
Or call the firelions with a sword.

Swordplay is cheap next to a Lords staff.
That is what I meant about a step backwards.

But I also agree that it makes sense that the Lords had to learn the Sword first like: baby steps to being a Lord

[ur-monkey]

I like the idea that 'Sword' might be an umbrella term for a wider training in martial arts and all the mental discipline that implies.

Okay, so Drinishok didn't look like your typical warrior. Good point! Made me think of Asuraka, the Staff-Elder. Obviously the Staff-Elder never needed to pass the Sword-rites, cos if he did, he'd be a Lord...?

And if he didn't, it must mean that people who fail the sword-rites can still go on to learn about the staff.

(there's probably no need to speculate about such a minor matter, but I've always loved the whole idea of Revelwood & the Loresraat)

[High Lord Tolkien]

(there's probably no need to speculate about such a minor matter, but I've always loved the whole idea of Revelwood & the Loresraat)

Huh?
No need to speculate?
Do you rave man?
Why else are we all here?

[ur-monkey]

Huh?
No need to speculate?
Do you rave man?
Why else are we all here?

Maybe I do my friend

[wayfriend]

Why else are we all here?

They said there'd be chicks ...

[ur-bane]

Sometimes what you learn, you learn because it is a stepping stone. The Sword is a stepping stone on the path to Lordship. Perhaps small powers must be mastered, and lessons of power learned, before you can trust to weild the bigger powers rightly.

I think that is exactly why the sword must be mastered before the staff.

Excellent post, Wayfriend.

[balon!]

The term 'Sword' might also not exclusivley imply mele fighting. What about tactics? And supply? New invention? These are all key parts of an Army, but not every soilder can master them.

[tyciol]

Swords are easier to use, but I think in the end the staff is probably a superior weapon, which is why they use it. More defensive too, the Lord needs defense more, since he can use his craft for offense. Lord's lives are more important than the common solderi, so focusing on defense is integral.

I had NO IDEA that Stephen Donaldson is a martial artist... that is so COOL! I guess I should have guessed from the Haruchai.

[matrixman]

Well, in the interest of accuracy, it needs to be said that it was actually years after he had written the 1st and 2nd Chronicles that SRD first took up martial arts. This is from his website's Gradual Interview (August 2004):

I never gave a second's thought to studying the martial arts until about the time I began working on the GAP books. And when I did consider the idea, my reasons were entirely personal: they had nothing to do with anything I had written, or anything I intended to write. (Some day, long after I appear to have died--because we all know I'm not *actually* going to die--I'll write an essay about "The Writer as Warrior." But don't wait up. <grin>)

By the way, welcome to the Watch, tyciol!

[mickwalker]

I think the reference to sword is misleading, lords are masters kevinslore, of warlore and stafflore rather than sword lore, they must understand marshal tactics not carry them out, they are the political leaders of the land and commanders in chief(s), they say drop the bomb they dont drop it themselves! Rooservelt was in a wheelchar but he still helped churchil beat hitler(uncle joe stalin did his bit aswell)

[Eustace Clarence Scrubb]

Perhaps it's like Yoda in the Star Wars series. Nobody expected that he was so capable with the lightsabre until we saw him use it.

[Nav]

I had NO IDEA that Stephen Donaldson is a martial artist... that is so COOL! I guess I should have guessed from the Haruchai.

If you want to get a feel for the depth of SRD's enthusiasm for martial arts, you should read The Man Who Fought Alone. About a third of the book is given over as a critique of different martial arts and I think it's probably the best of that series (even though SRD drops a rather clumsy hint about a third of the way through).