The Old Man

[Aleksandr]

Linden wasn't, but she was sort of "whisked off" with Covenant's summoning - since it's a safe bet to think that Foul didn't want to summon her, and only later had to plan for her presence

Samadhi Sheol and later Foul himself claimed otherwise: that Linden had been especially chosen for her role. Also, the Creator had a hand in Linden’s choosing too. It wasn't an accident at all.

[Quisling]

The Quisling believes that Hile Troy was chosen for a specific purpose - to demonstrate the folly of uncertainty, as opposed to unbelief. In this context, Quisling believes it is irrelevant whether he was chosen by the Creator or by the Author.


Furthermore, Quisling suggests that the distinction between the Creator and the Author is not a precise one.

[Xar]

Linden wasn't, but she was sort of "whisked off" with Covenant's summoning - since it's a safe bet to think that Foul didn't want to summon her, and only later had to plan for her presence

Samadhi Sheol and later Foul himself claimed otherwise: that Linden had been especially chosen for her role. Also, the Creator had a hand in Linden’s choosing too. It wasn't an accident at all.

Aleksandr:

First of all, we have no evidence that Samadhi Sheol and Foul himself were saying the truth about having a hand in summoning Linden - I personally would take all Foul says with a grain of salt, since he is under no compulsion to say the truth - and neither are his Ravers. By this I mean to say that anything less than a statement like "yes, we intended to summon you all along", made by Foul and/or his servants would have blatantly pointed out to Covenant that Linden hadn't been chosen by them at all. Foul always gives me the impression he is able to quickly rewrite his plans to account for unexpected events: as such, even if Linden wasn't expected, while the small group traveled from Mithil Stonedown to Revelstone, Foul and his Ravers (who might well have been warned by the Raver who killed Nassic) had plenty of time to cook up a plausible lie - or even to rewrite their plans in order to account for Linden's presence and sight ("hmm, so this other person seems able to still use the health-sense? Good; all the despair I have laid for the groveller will serve another purpose, as well.").

Remember that Foul had no hand in bringing Linden to Covenant's town, or to Haven Farm itself: whereas he had to use Joan and the desperate townsfolk in order to lure Covenant from Haven Farm to the sacrifice. And no, the simple paper sheet Linden found on the floor of her apartment when she moved in isn't reason enough to say Foul had planned for her to go to the Land all along, since Berenford mentions that "those people" have been trying to "convert" several others in town.

And I never said the Creator hadn't chosen Linden: my post is in this thread for a purpose, after all! But I think the Creator cannot send someone to the Land without exploiting a summoning from the other side, or he would break the Arch of Time. As I see it, he can only choose the summoned one and make sure the summoning picks that person instead of someone else. So at the same time, it seems plausible that he can also choose to "link" someone to another person, so that if the second person is summoned to the Land, the first is whisked off with him/her (which is what I think happened to Linden and Covenant).

[ThistleDown]

I didn't mean to imply that I was in the camp of those that believe that the Land was simply in TC's head, and his subsequent catharisis. It was merely a suggestion as to how those lines blur.

I had not thought about the summonded subject being close to death. That is an interesting point. It seems that LA defies that. It is possible she was whisked away because of TC's summoning, or that she was indeed chosen. Or perhaps she was closer to death then we realized. Perhaps she was morally dead in some way.

She did mention that the Gilden trees should be "put out of their misery". Although it is very PC to accept the coup de grace, I don't think it applies in this case. We also see from later actions when she tries to end the Haruchai's pain by killing him.

So I guess she was either chosen, summonded (which I don't see), was just caught in TC's summoning, or was close to death herself.

Chosen, or sent by the Creator seems unlikely since it seems that it should break the Arch of Time as previously argued. So it seems the linking idea is plausable. Also, it is possible that this summoning was more of a "door" or portal as opposed to an individual summoning as see in the First Chrons?

I also really liked the idea that LF could think on his feet and quickly change his plans. That was good insight.

[Sheriff Lytton]

This means something

[wayfriend]

We have clear evidence that both the Dead in Andelain and the Elohim foresaw Avery's presence. And Lord Foul is a past master at foresight. QED

[Sheriff Lytton]

*furiously adds more mashed potoato*

This means something

[Aleksandr]

So I guess she was either chosen, summonded (which I don't see), was just caught in TC's summoning, or was close to death herself.

Linden had a fairly minor injury as the beginning of her first adventure in the land. She was not close to death. I also think there's more to it than her simply falling through in Covenant's wake, though we may get some confirmation as to the possibilty of that if we eventually find out in the new series that everyone present at the summoning place came through into the Land, a question that is not fully answered yet (of five people, three are in the land for sure, a fourth very probably so, and a fifth just maybe.)
Also, Foul definitely as some ability to manipulate events and people in the real world, perhaps because Despite exists here as a subjective psychic force though not as an incarnate demigod. He was certainly able to warp Joan and the cultists to his purposes. While I doubt he had his eye on Linden for years, he may well have noticed her (she had issues that would make her quite visible to the Despiser!) and as soon as she showed signs of involving herself with TC he made contigency plans for her. Remember, she had quiet a nighmare after meeting TC

[Tranthalar]

You can't just say that it is definantly inside of covenant or definantly outside. Theres some evidence that is outside (the old man meeting linden) and also you have TC saying he believed it was inside.

I hope it never gets resolved also.

But I don't like the argument that its all inside and there is no creator/lord foul and all that. It seems to me that there is too much of Lord Foul acting of his own free will for it to be entirely internal to TC.

[W.B.]

It seems like the Land really is real, with all the people who are in it, it seems, but nothing's totally for sure, true. But, it doesn't matter that much, in a way, because in the First Chrons Covenant never really knew if the Land was real, so from his point of view he still made that moral decision based on the whole "question of ethics" the old man presented. I mean, it was still a valid question for him, even though readers may decide at some point in the series that the Land truly is real. The ambiguity is great.

[Sweet Brutha Numpsay]

Yeah, I dont think Donaldson is going to pull a Stephen Kingish type deal here(i.e, Dark Tower 7)

[Manethrall]

The old man could be TC himself, or at least a slight part of what makes TC a whole man. The reincarnation of a body trying to help. There is limitless knowledge within the old man, and obviously he created the Arch of Time, and who else would know the facts. Covenant died, of that we know. The wild magic is the catalyst that will destroy the Arch of Time. And as Covenant is remade with wild magic, does that justify him not helping his former self: simply because he knows that he carries that burden?

[Lord Doom]

Old man seems to be a manifestation in Covenants head.

I just hope the 3rd chronicles keep the magic of what worked in the first 6 books.

So far, it hasn't.

Linden isn't a character I enjoy reading about for 500 pages.

Covenant was far more interesting, compelling and fun to read about.

I never really felt much sympathy for Linden at all during the second chronicles, and looked forward to the chapters where she wasn't focused on.

[MrKABC]

Yeah, I dont think Donaldson is going to pull a Stephen Kingish type deal here(i.e, Dark Tower 7)

Dark Tower Spoiler Warning--read at your own risk-mod.

Spoiler

DON'T get me started on DT7...

I was so ANGRY at the end of THAT book I wanted to burn the whole pile of DT books that I have cherished for 20 years. Talk about being ripped off!!!

Yes, I know it's OT but I had to vent.

SRD, *please* don't do to us what Sai King did - the Dark Tower series was utterly destroyed by the last book and cop-out ending.

[wayfriend]

Thanks for the Dark Tower spoilers. Yep. Glad I read 6 of those books now. Yep yep. Really really helpful spoilers. Yep. Waiting for years for that last book.

And I can buy a gun where?

But seriously, if there was ever a reason I would use an expletive on this board to describe a member of the watch, congratulations, you got it.

[danlo]

Sorry I didn't catch that sooner Wayfriend--People PLEASE put spoilers on or spoiler warnings up whenever you discuss another book or series-especially the endings!!!

[MrKABC]

Whoops, sorry about that... My bad...

Let's just say that the ending is open to a LOT of interpretation, and I interpreted it to mean:

Spoiler

The ending of the book sucked a giant goat dick, and I felt completely cheated and ripped off!!! I can't believe I waited TWENTY YEARS for that total COP OUT of an IDIOTIC ending!!!!!

There. Now I feel better. And Wayfriend, I'm sorry I ruined it for you - but you must trust me on this... Peace?

[birdandbear]

Wayfriend, bear in mind that this is MrKABC's opinion....

Guess I'll spoiler this, just in case....

Spoiler

Opinions on the ending to The Dark Tower tend to be extreme, and vehement for whatever reason. Most people either loved it entirely, or despised it bitterly. The ones who loved it thought it was absolutely brilliant, and completely appropriate, and the only possible ending to such a saga. Those who hated it feel pretty much as MrKABC has so eloquently expressed. Myself, I fall somewhere in the middle. It's certainly not what I would have expected, and I was pretty bitterly disappointed at first, but the more I thought about it the more I swayed to the "it's the only possible ending" camp. And if I can judge by the people I've talked to, most fans seem quite satisfied with the way it all played out in the end. So please finish it, if you've read the first six? You've come so far, you should certainly read it, and decide for yourself.

[MrKABC]

Wayfriend, bear in mind that this is MrKABC's opinion....

So please finish it, if you've read the first six? You've come so far, you should certainly read it, and decide for yourself.

"Bird and Bear and Hare and Fish, give a fan his fondest wish..."

Yes, I agree with birdandbear completely on this one! It's like reading a Roger Ebert movie review - don't believe it until you have seen the movie yourself!

At the risk of hijacking this thread and moving it completely OT, I'll only say that YES, please finish! Make your own decisions...

We now return to our discussion of Thomas Covenant.

[Iryssa]

Okay, bumping this thread again...
Aside from the stuff that went totally off-topic *wry grin* this is something that interests me...especially in light of that passage I mentioned here.

The thing I wish to make a point of is that it seems possible (to me, at least) that he is a lord. The Creator theory also seems valid to me, but the reason I get the feeling that he might be a lord is because of his staff, and the strange quality it seems to have.

"Without another word, he turned and moved away. He leaned on his staff like an exhausted prophet, worn out with uttering visions. His staff rang curiously on the sidewalk, as if the wood were harder than cement."
From Lord Foul's Bane, chapter two