Is The creator Our Creator, and Lord Foul Our Satan?

[caamora]

Sky and Bannor -

Great discussion! I enjoyed reading it. I am not near as well versed as you two are but I would still like to make an observation regarding the "sons of God" issue. The angels were created by God, right? My understanding is that they are more servants rather than children. Humans are more the children of God. I recall being taught as a child that the angels are somewhat jealous of us because we are given the opportunity to prove our love and devotion to God.

Anyway, I also agree with both of you that Foul and Satan are not the same being - or as you both stated earlier - different but similar.

[Tohrm]

I am definitely glad that I started this little topic, I have gathered a whole lot of different little insights. Thanks everyone!!

[Skyweir]

and thankyou Tohrm ..

.. it would seem we can rely on you good Watchman .. to provide the most intersting of topics to explore!! ..

I am glad you have returned .. and as can be seen you have returned in style!!!

[Tohrm]

And I thank you, Sky. Many of your comments upon this topic have stimulated the aging cells within my rather overstressed cranial cavity to the utmost!

[Skyweir]

Your thanks honours me sir Tohrm ..

hehe .. this is become a thank-fest .. and why indeed not ?

.. If there is no further discussion re this topic .. perhaps we can compliment our fellow Watchmen/persons .. on this thread instead ..

I sincerely wish Vexis Larxis (sp?) would also return .. he is another with the most probing mind .. very stimulating to have around ..

We each add something to the Watch .. that expands our individual appreciation for the chrons. It is good to belong here .. I have come to love the chronicles and SRD the author all the more for belonging to this site!

It is good that a work such as this can stand up to the intense scrutiny we give it here!

[Tohrm]

Here is another question that I have regarding this particular thread. Now we all have seen within our own religions that our satan was cast down to the earth? Or at least out of the hallowed halls of the hall of God. And that all of these fallen angels that were with him were cast down as well. Could there be any relationship between all of them, ie. could they all be related to one another? Such as a bad branch of the family, a whole passel of ne'er do wells? If so, then the 'blood' connection between them could also possibly explain why LF was able to influence the people of our earth as he is blood kin to our satan. Our satan would probably love to have any help in vexing our God and would also enjoy giving a bunch of headaches to any other creator that would dare to imprison his brother. Or could it just be that like attracts like in a case such as this and our satan just helped out LF just on the possibility that if LF did happen to succeed with his nefarious plans that he would be grateful enough to render assistance to satan when it was needed?

[Skyweir]

mmm .. methinks you just invented this new abstract-bazarro connection just to perpetuate your original proposed premise further ..

so what exactly is this point .. do elaborate for a slow minded Watchman ..

fallen angels blood kin to our satan? .. I have no problem with that .. but these fallen angels would be without physical form .. spirits.

and how do they relate to LF? our satan will allow LF the use of them in our world?? to what end .. do you propose?

and that our satan would appreciate the recruitment of any being willing to be destructive to a Creator's purposes?

intriguing ..

so instead of being one .. now do you suggest they are collaborator's in each others ends?

ok we can work with that ..

[Tohrm]

One of the main points that I was trying to bring up was at the end of my previous idea.

Our satan would probably love to have any help in vexing our God and would also enjoy giving a bunch of headaches to any other creator that would dare to imprison his brother. Or could it just be that like attracts like in a case such as this

Unfortunately throughout history, the most evil of men attracted similar men to help them with their plans. I doubt that anyone can dispute that in Hitlers' cabinet were some of the most evil and twisted individuals that walked the face of this earth. But by the same token there were a small number that knew that their fuhrer was insane and tried unsuccessfully to eliminate him. But it happens to be the first group that I am referring to. It seems to me that all men, or immortals, who are evil would appreciate any help in destroying their nemesis. Even the most slow witted individual realizes that there is strength in numbers.
Therefore, is it possible that our satan would accept any assistance from LF in his desire to hasten his release to wreak havoc upon our world in return for a little help from satans' helping LF to 'encourage' TC to become the 'willing substitute' for Joan upon the altar of blood?
Or is it possible that all of the evil ones that are trying to oppose all of the creators are from a bad branch of the family of creators? After all, both LF and satan have something important missing from their personal make up. They are both missing compassion for living creatures and they both have no regard at all for anybody except for themselves. Maybe not a blood bond, but definitely a bond of common goals within their own hatred of all that is good. Kindred souls to the max?

[Loredoctor]

Just an interesting thought. When the creator and the Despiser refer to the Arch of Time, I take that to mean the passage of the sun across the sky or the passage of the planets of that solar system across the heavens throughout the year. If that is the case, it makes perfect sense to refer to an arch and time together. Further, this also implies that the Arch of Time is unique to each world (the Land or Earth). The Despiser exists within his own Arch as Satan exists in Earth's. Though, in the 2nd chronicles, we have the Despiser on Earth, outside of the Land's arch (which pretty much damages my theory).
Opinions?

[CovenantJr]

It certainly seems that each 'world' has it's own Arch of Time or equivalent, which suggests that whatever realm within which the Creator exists is without time (at least, a human understanding of time), or perhaps has some Arch of it's own - in which case who created that...? (This is heading the way of those unanswerable philosophical questions... ). I never considered that the Arch was any kind of physical presence, more the actual process of the passage of time itself is the thing that holds the Land's Earth together...

The idea that 'our' Earth and the Land's Earth have their own seperate Arches is supported by the difference in the passage of time between the two - the fact that time seems to pass far more quickly in the Land than in TC's world...

[danlo]

What if Lord Foul and Satan, while attempting 2 work 2gether, realized they hated each other, like they hate everything else, what would they say? Satan: Ok creep, I got your white gold right here! LF: Aw, go straight 2 heaven ya bastard!

[darth mhoram]

you guys may have to help me on this one but i read somewhere (maybe somewhere on these boards) that the land symbolized covenants body and lord foul symbolized the leprosy that was destroying it.

[amanibhavam]

that is one possible interpretation, yes

but things are never that easy

[Skyweir]

I agree with Cov jr .. he raised some very interesting points ..

It is logical that each existence has its own 'AoT' .. and that our world and that of the 'Creator' do too!

We have discussed this before .. but I always considered the AoT to be a very interesting and intriguing concept. When organising an earth/planet it would seem only requisite that it has a space and time in which to exist.

The Arch of Time (please note the intentional lack of acronym usage ) preserves and governs the natural existence of a particular planet. I am grasping for a word here .. but it is evading me .. to describe a phenomenon that can do this

Like placing a planet in its orbit .. and its position in the Universal expanse governs its time and space .. so maybe the AoT is something akin to that.

A concept like gravity .. or similar ..

[Earthblood]

I always thought along the lines of darth mhoram - the land was akin to Covenants body in concept.

I would agree w/Sky - each plane of existence must have its own 'arch of time', else it wouldn't have a place to be.

Unless it's all just a dream I dreamed one afternoon long ago......

[Earthblood]

I must give credit for the '...dreamed one afternoon long ago' quote I used. Its from a Grateful Dead song - don't want to infringe on anyones copyrights!

[amanibhavam]

Sky:
In a way, the Arch of Time is equal to E=mc2...

[Tohrm]

Amy, I don't know about that one at all. You will have to expound upon this theory to all of us. And Sky, I definitely agree that each realm has its' own AoT for the simple reason that this explains the time differences between the two realms. Our realm has time moving forward so much slower than in the land. That made perfect sense.

[Lady Genni]

Ok - gotta throw my two cents in here. I don't think many can get past the good vs evil and how that translates to any "world". For me the simple answer is

Creator = good (like God or which ever "higher power" you ascribe to)
Foul = evil (satan, man, concept in general, etc, etc.)
TC = the paradox of both and keeping them in balance - can't have one with out the other

Sure good resembles good and evil resembles evil. They are universal thoughts/concepts. That's why we all draw so many different levels from SRD's books. He takes these universal issues and creates something totally foreign and totally familiar at the same time. "exotic and familiar" to quote SRD I believe.

Of course I tend to think of things with more of a Freudian twist:

Superego = Creator/Land = Conscience
Ego = TC = consciousness (memory, control, conforming to reality)
Id = Foul = subconsious (impulses & drives)

All of these elements are happening at the same time but on different levels. Maybe TCTC is just an extension of SRD's own mind and thoughts. Or even TC's own. I think that the argument of what is real is valid too. Matrix comes to mind...could the land not just be part of TC's mind? A landscape for his battered/sickend mind to play out a power struggle between his Id and Superego?

(owe - my brain hurts - and I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the original topic?)

Anyway...just my thoughts. Any comments?

[aliantha]

(owe - my brain hurts - and I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the original topic?)

Who cares?

EB, I like your Freudian twist! Yes, I can see this as a battle in TC's head between his superego and his id. But that brings back the original, overarching (you should pardon the pun) question of the 1st Chrons: Is the Land real, or is a hallucination?

Did anybody mention archetypes yet? The Creator/God as archetypes of good, and LF/Satan as archetypes of evil. That may be why they seem so similar, and why we're asking whether the Creator is our God and whether Foul could be our Satan.

For me, I don't think Foul is the same beastie as Satan. For one thing, Foul is a little more inept than our ruler of the underworld is reputed to be. But I'm a little more stumped on the idea of the Creator being our God. If there is only one God (and SRD sure seems to be operating within a Judeo-Christian framework, so there's no reason to believe there would be more than one God), then He and the Creator have to be one. But as somebody else said somewhere (the "antivenin" quote), the Creator doesn't seem to be completely conversant with stuff in our world. So does that make the Creator a sort of demigod? And if so, then is our God truly the only one?

Of course, if all this is truly happening in TC's own head, then he (his conscience) could be the "Creator", just as he's the creator of everything that happens in his novels. And Foul, then, would also be a part of him, just as TC says at the end of WGW. But then how does Linden share in the hallucination?

It's -- a paradox!

Hee hee, I love this stuff....