Runes...The Staff of Law

[Baracka]

I finished reading Runes. I have a question:

Why is the Staff of Law so necessary? Now, I understand the Staff helped to uphold the Law, but shouldn't the Laws of the Earth abide without the aid of a talisman that Berek created? I would imagine that the Law governing the Land is a natural force, much like Earthpower. How could Lord Foul create such havoc by warping the Law in the Wounded Land, or cause Caesures to rip the fabric of Time itself?

Why was the recovery of the Staff of Law so important, and if the Staff is so important and so powerful, how could it be destroyed so easily with contact of White Gold?

What I'm getting at is, sure the Staff of Law is a powerful tool, a talisman, but it can't be the Law itself. Because Berek created it out of wood. Therefore, if Lord Foul was so powerful to be able to bend and pervert the natural Laws themselves, shouldn't he be also able to then mitigitate whatever effects the Staff of Law could have on upholding the Law?

It just seems like the Staff of Law has become too critical and important, in many cases, acting as the Law itself when it can't be.

[dlbpharmd]

Actually, the SoL is the Law itself. Foul was able to recuperate after TPTP by drawing from the Earthpower b/d there was no SoL to resist him. He was able to corrupt the Earthpower with Sunbane b/c there was no SoL to maintain the integrity and purity of Earthpower.

[Ryzel]

I have always figured that the SoL was kind of 'the white gold' of Earthpower. In other words, it was not really about the laws of the earth but about who had 'control' of Earthpower. When the staff was destroyed there was no way to keep Earthpower on track and thus LF was able to use it for his own ends.

[ur-bane]

Actually, the SoL is the Law itself.

Wasn't it specifically said in the books that the SoL was not the Law, but rather a means to uphold/strengthen and wied it?
The SoL would have had to have been used to prevent Foul from healing at the hands of Earthpower. It was merely lost after the Desecration, not destroyed. So in fact it did exist while Foul cowered near the source of Earthpower. And also Elena lost it in Earthroot, but had it while a dead spectre under the influence of Foul and the Illearth Stone.
It was the SoL that Elena used to hold Lord Foul's Winter over the Land.

After that it was destroyed, but the Law still existed. And that Law was what enabled Foul to reconstitute himself after his defeat.

So once, Foul was restored while the Staff existed, and once without. Which means that the Law functions independently of the Staff, but the Staff cannot function without Law.

[dlbpharmd]

Well, now you have me thinking... but first:

It was merely lost after the Desecration, not destroyed. So in fact it did exist while Foul cowered near the source of Earthpower.

You're confused about the two seperate times periods involved. Foul used Earthpower to rejuvenate himself AFTER TC destroyed the SoL at the Colossuss of the Fall, not after Kevin invoked the RoD.

[Prebe]

I'll have to agree with ur-bane here.

In the whole of the second Crons earthpower exists (aliantha, Andelain) side by side with the Sunbane. Since there is no SoL during this period, is it not fair to assume that earthpower and the SoL are not the same thing?

[The Somberlain]

But it wasn't just made out of wood. It was made out of wood from the One Tree (after reading TOT, I wasn't quite sure how Berek managed to get to the One Tree, let alone get the wood from it... but somehow he did). Which means that rather than just being a way to wield/focus Earthpower, it's imbued with Earthpower from the start. And Berek's runes (and, with the second Staff, the inherent "runes" formed by Vain and Findail) allow it to naturally channel the Earthpower in Lawful ways (unlike the Earthblood, which has no controlling runes, and can break natural laws).

As I understand it, while the wood of the Staff was a part of the Tree, it contained Earthpower... and once it became the Staff, it still contained Earthpower, but also became the embodiment of Law. What I'm trying to get at is that (I think) although its creation didn't "create" Law, once it had been created, it became a very important part of Law.



However, on the subject of the second Staff, there's something that bothers me. We know that the ur-viles created Vain for the purpose of becoming the Staff of Law (and perhaps we'll find out their motivation for wanting a Staff in the next book). But at the end of TOT, Vain became 'imperfect'; his forearm turned to hollow, lifeless wood. Does this mean that the new Staff is flawed somehow?

[wayfriend]

The answers to all of these questions are revealed in the Gradual Interview. If I may:

Now. The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely--i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts. It's not a light switch, essentially distinct from the flow of electricity which it enables. In a certain sense, the Staff *is* both Law and Earthpower, just as white gold *is* wild magic. In fantasy, in magic, the tool cannot be distinguished from what the tool does.

So. Even though the Staff was never essential to the original existence of either Law or Earthpower, the simple fact of its creation means that it participates in both, and can therefore: a) strengthen both, or b) weaken both (by being destroyed). So yes, the destruction of the original Staff weakened the structure of Law.

(12/20/2004)

So ... the Staff, through use, became integral to Law and Earthpower.

I think of the "transformation" of Vain's forearm as the catalyst which makes his later changes possible. After all, how can you possibly have a Staff of Law that doesn't come from the One Tree? Vain carries the true victory of the Quest for the One Tree with him when Covenant, Linden, etc. flee the sinking Isle.

(09/06/2004)

So ... what happened to Vain at Bare Isle was a good thing.

[The Somberlain]

Hmm. That's what I thought when it first happened. But then later on Linden looked at him and I thought that her health-sense saw the arm as being "dead". Maybe I misread it or something.

[wayfriend]

Hmm. That's what I thought when it first happened. But then later on Linden looked at him and I thought that her health-sense saw the arm as being "dead". Maybe I misread it or something.

"His arm's empty. When I close my eyes, it isn't even there. If you took all the life out of the One Tree — took it away so completely that the Tree never had any — never had any meaning at all — it would look like that. If he was actually alive — if he wasn't just a thing the ur-viles made — he'd be in terrible pain."

So ... his transformed arm is empty of life. As is Vain himself.

And Linden's health sense cannot perceive it. Like Covenant under Kasreyn's control, it is closed to her. Beyond her. Like the One Tree, it is too powerful for her.

This is speculative ground, but Vain seems to be carrying some sort of essence of the One Tree with him. A necessary essence. A very powerful one. Something that brings the One Tree into the picture when the new Staff of Law is finally created.

[The Somberlain]

So... when he merges with Findail at the end, the "life", from the Elohim, comes back into the wood of the One Tree - Vain's arm (is that the same as High Wood?)? Is that it?

When she said he'd be in terrible pain if he were alive, I took it to mean that it wasn't the same as One-Tree-wood. Not that it was One-Tree-wood, and thus was so powerful that it'd hurt him.

[Fist and Faith]

Here's how I described my take on all this nearly two years ago.

As for the Earthpower becoming corrupted, that's a very tricky thing. Originally, Earthpower was probably impervious to such corruption.

But then, the Earthpower thought the Land and Earth could benefit from humans having a deeper relationship with itself. So it helped Berek create the original Staff of Law.

This seemed like a good thing. Of course, giving humans the understanding of such power means they also had the ability to abuse it. But even the Ritual of Desecration was not a corruption of Earthpower. It didn't break the Law, it was merely a hideous exploitation of the Law.

And after so many millennia,

the Staff became the thing it served. It was the Law; the Law was incarnate in the Staff. The tool and its purpose were one.

But then the Staff was destroyed. And while Foul couldn't corrupt the Law in the beginning, he was able to now. And that's why a new Staff was needed. The Earthpower had lost its stability. Think of the Staff as a rulebook. The Earthpower got so used to reading the rules whenever it needed to know anything that it forgot that it knew the rules before the book was written! And when the book was burned, it couldn't remember any of the rules. So a new rulebook was needed.

[dlbpharmd]

What he said.

[ur-bane]

Well, now you have me thinking... but first:

It was merely lost after the Desecration, not destroyed. So in fact it did exist while Foul cowered near the source of Earthpower.

You're confused about the two seperate times periods involved. Foul used Earthpower to rejuvenate himself AFTER TC destroyed the SoL at the Colossuss of the Fall, not after Kevin invoked the RoD.

Hmmm. I always assumed that it was the Earthpower that enabled Foul to regenerate after the RoD as well.
But now I don't know. Foul mentions only Law.
In LFB Foul is speaking to Covenant after the very first summonsing:

..."Proud of his Lore, he did not know that the very Law which
he served preserved me through that cataclysm, though all but a few of his own people and works were stricken into death.
True, I was reduced for a time...."

While I certainly agree that the Law was weakened when the Staff of Law was destroyed, they both still exist beyond it. The Staff is *part* of Law and Earthpower, but like I said earlier, the Law functions independently of the Staff, but the Staff cannot function without Law. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

If the Staff of Law (tool) cannot be distinguished from Law and Earthpower (what the tool does) then Law and Earthpower would have been destroyed with the Staff, not just weakened.

[Fist and Faith]

The tool and its purpose were one.

And she Staff had been destroyed.

That loss had weakened the very fiber of the Law. A crucial support was withdrawn, and the Law faltered.

For the Staff of Law had been destroyed. The Clave flourished in part because the old severity of the Law, the stringency which matched the price paid to the beauty of the thing purshcased, had been weakened;

And this was possible because the Staff had been destroyed. The Law which had limited him and resisted him since the creation of the earth had been weakened;

I think there's a difference between Law and Earthpower, even if the two are used nearly interchangably most of the time. I think Earthpower is raw power, and Law is the way Earthpower behaves. In a way, this is an impossible concept. When the Staff was destroyed, and the Law weakened, Foul was able to manipulate - even, to some degree, rewrite! - the Law. That's like rewriting the laws of physics in our universe! Like saying a stream of negatively charged particles - electricity - no longer behaves the way it always has! The Earthpower/electrons still exist, but now they do different things. Changing the way electrons behaved in our universe would, I assume, change our universe beyond recognition. You can't change that without changing, if not obliterating, gravity too. Time itself would be changed. But in the Land, gravity doesn't seem to be a part of the same Law as Earthpower.

Or something like that.

[ur-bane]

I agree with you on that score, Fist. ALthough Earthpower and Law are used almost interchangeably at times, they should not be.

Although Earthpower could not exist without Law, since the Law structures existence within Time, and Earthpower exists within time, Earthpower is essentially separate from Law. It is actually "above the law" so to speak, even if it is part of the Law.
Were it not, no Command Elena gave could have broken the Law. Just as no act of Caer-Caveral could have broken the Law. Earthpower, like wild magic, transcends the Law.

This is similar to how I view the Staff of Law. The difference being that the Staff was formed as a means to wield the Law in the form of Earthpower. The staff is not the law. It can be distinguished from the Law, and in that I disagree with SRD, as I stated in my above post.

To give an idea of how I look at it, I will use a construction analogy.

For those who do not know, when most houses are constructed, the walls are built flat on the ground. The beams are attached to the sill plate, headers and stringers are inserted to frame out doors and windows, and a cap plate is put on each wall. The wall is then tilted and lifted onto the footer (or foundation wall, if there is a basement). Usually the walls are bolted to the footer by means of threaded rods set into the footer when it is poured.
These walls represent the Law. Once they are raised and bolted in place, they stand. But they are weak, and easily pushed over. They do not gain strength until they are tied together with a second set of cap beams that make the four walls one continuos wall. That cap is the Staff of Law--it strengthens the walls (Law). Once again--remove that cap, and the walls still stand, but are once again weak and easily destroyed.

But they still exist, and are still walls (Law) even without the cap (Staff).

But destroy the walls(Law), the cap (Staff) will still exist, but serve no purpose.

Regardless of what SRD said in the GI, we have read nothing in any of the seven books of the Chronicles that can point us in any other direction.
The Staff can be distinguished from the Law, if for no other reason than the Law (walls) still existed after the Staff(cap) was removed.
If they were one and the same, the destruction of one would cause the destruction of the other.

[Fist and Faith]

Let me first say that I love analogies, and yours is very cool!

I think your last two sentences say it all. I agree. I imagine SRD would, too. Here's a few "I think"s, based on my "the Staff was a rulebook" theory:
-The Law still existed.
-Anyone who wielded Earthpower before the Staff was destroyed could still wield it after.
-If they didn't know the Staff had been destroyed, they wouldn't have noticed any difference.
-Anyone could have changed the Law the way Foul did, if they'd known it was now possible, and if they'd had the imagination.
-Anyone could have unknowingly changed the Law. If someone who didn't know too much about what Earthpower could and could not do before the Staff was destroyed tried wielding it in a way it could not have been used before, it might have worked. If they used it in this new way often enough, a new law could have been written. And they might teach this new idea to others, and others might have said, "If we can do that with Earthpower, we should also be able to do this." And they would have reinforced the new law.

[wayfriend]

Remember, the Staff was given in order to help against the Despiser.

He guided the Lord-Fatherer to the fashioning of the Staff of Law - weapon against Despite. ... Wielding the first Earthpower, he made the Staff of Law from the wood of the One Tree, and with it began the healing of the Land.

So Law and Earthpower came first. Then came Despite. Then came the Staff, which, in Berek's hands, helped protect the Earth against Despite.

So it's clear Earthpower didn't need the Staff in the original design, it was an add-on.

The construction analogy is bad for that reason - the caps were necessary from the onset.

How about: The Staff is like a bridge over a river. The river could be crossed the hard way, but a bridge makes it easier. You can now do more than you could before - develop trade, move forces, etc. Now, if the bridge is destroyed, it's worse than going back to the way it was. Everything that depended on that easy crossing - e.g. free trade - is left high and dry. Trade collapses, kingdoms collapse, etc.

[The Somberlain]

I like that bridge analogy.

It also (maybe deliberately, I don't know) seems to incorporate that idea that Law is a part of the greater, more potent Earthpower. You can cross the river by swimming and end up anywhere, but only swimming in a straight line, at that part of the riverbank, is "Lawful". The bridge allows that particular crossing to be undertaken more easily and makes it easier to see where the crossing is.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[Fist and Faith]

It's entirely possible that we'll never find a single analogy that works perfectly.