Elena (adult question)

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Was Elena a virgin?

Yes
53
59%
No
11
12%
I don't know
3
3%
It doesn't matter
23
26%
 
Total votes: 90

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Vector
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Post by Vector »

Myste wrote:It's probably also useful to remember that there are different cultures in the Land, just as there are different cultures here. Stonedownors and Woodhelvennin and Ramen and Haruchai and Giants, etc.--they probably all have at least slightly different views on sex.
For sure, the ur-vile and waynhim do, judging from their reproduction methods... :S
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Post by CovenantJr »

A unique method of contraception, certainly.
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lurch
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Sooo.....

Post by lurch »

So...does it work for everybody,,that , interiorly speaking( yes, you can shoot me for that)..Elena being the product of a subhuman crime( the violent end of innocence),,is like the il-product of guilt,,something close to Shame..? Therefore, she was litteraly only meant for our anti-hero, Thomas...?,,,A very deep Shame.?...MEL
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Post by Myste »

I don't think shooting is necessary ;)... I mean, it's a question of how you look at it. Certainly, SRD meant Elana for Covenant. If you mean, did the Creator have a hand in Elena's madness, or did Foul, then I suppose it's a different question.

The Creator has to be hands-off, or he'll break the Arch of Time, so it can't be him. And Foul did his job at Elena's conception--he didn't need to mess with her head in the meantime. I think that within the world of the story (ignoring that SRD, as the writer, has final veto), Elena's madness was not contrived by any direct intervention on Foul's behalf. Covenant's guilt was his own, and the result of his inner despiser--not any outside force. That argument does become more complicated if you look at the Land as an outer landscape of TC's inner turmoil. However, I think that either way, no intervention between Elena's conception and the moment she met TC had anything to do with her screwed-up perception of Covenant.
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Post by drew »

I think that Foul was smart enough to know that ANY offspring from TC would be a great opportunaty for himself.

He knew that they would end up being on the council of Lords, because he knew how the Lords thought about things. Plus he also knew (or at least presumed) that said offspring would deffinatly have issues...issues that would ultimatly help the despiser--I think that the Raynhyn thing though, was mere coincidence that ultimatly favoured Foul.
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Post by Nav »

mickwalker wrote:I think gift is a corect quote but the gift is her viginity not sex and you can nly give your viginiy once( unless your in the R.A.F.)
LMAO!

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let me straighten this out...

Post by lurch »

...here is what I meant....Thomas is guilty of getting leprosy. His innocence is gone.( ref the comment made of pre-leprosy writetings).

Thomas finds himself in The Land. The first thing he does is violently remove Lena's innocence. There are many consequences to this . The father literally melts down.,,for an example. Elena is conceived and born. She is a product of the rape. In the real world, what are some of the products of Thomas'es rape ,,of getting leprosy?

Amongst the many consequences, is the acceptance of his own shame. He finally blows his top when,,not just some, but all his bills are being paid by someone else,,so he has no excuse to be in town, any more. Yet, he stays the 2nd calling inorder to save the little girls life..He rises above his shame and does the right humanbeing thing.

...Thats abit of mental aerobics. Talk about cheap!..so where are these RAF women?.Rafland?..MEL
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Post by Nav »

They're in the Royal Air Force, commonly abbreviated to the RAF. They get around quite a bit, I know one who's just come back from Afghanistan.
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Post by NightBlaze »

I think, and this IS just an opinion, that perhaps Elena took TC's question "how far are you willing to go" to heart and was willing to show just how far she would go to have Covenants allegiance. Maybe she was a virgin, but she was willing to do anything it took. That much is certain :)
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Post by Warmark Troy »

I think Elena offered herself to Covenenat for one - or maybe both - of two reasons.

1. She wanted to breed a 'superlord'. Lena was an ordinary girl, Elena was High Lord at a younf age due to her power, this may be because was because her father was the white gold wielder. While insest is bad at the best of times perhaps to have the white gold wielder as father and grandfather would mean that the offspring might have been very, very magically powerful. As well as possibly an inbred degenerate, to someone as fanatical about defeating Lord Foul preparing a 'superlord', even if a generation late for the current campaign could only help to strtengthen that land. Perhaps the child would have power enough to unlock the seven wards.

2. She may have wanted to honeytrap Covenant to coerce him into taking an active role in defending the land.
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Post by trenchcoatangel »

As to the reasoning behind Elena's intrest in Covenant. Well, it easily could have spawned from her mother, while she was young when the she left, She had to have had some memory of her mother doting on covanant for years.
IMHO who knows
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Post by stonedowner A »

I've been reading some of these responses where in general people agree that marriage and virginity are very sacred, so most likely Elena was a virgin.

However, would this also mean that Mhoram died a virgin? I mean he never married, at least not by the end of Power that Preserves.

My guess is that both Mhoram and Elena probably were both virgins, and my thinking is that they didn't really feel a great need to get married, etc, because of their extensive work with the lore, earthpower, etc. The power and satisfaction that they probably obtained from that work likely served as a block to forestall marriage. And Elena had her marrowmeld to occupy her when she was bored. However, there was probably another reason why they might not have married. The Land during all the years that Elena grew up was in a constant state of war or at least dread. People knew that the Despiser was out there, and it might be hard to want to get married and bring children into a world of war. In Lord Foul's Bane, Atiaran tells Lena that she is sorry that she was born at such a time of war. And of course, during this time, all the lords had to work really hard trying to come up with ways to defeat Foul that they might have not had much time and energy for other things. Of course, some lords (like Loerya) did get married and have children. I'm just arguing that these reasons might have been blocks to discourage some of the others.

However, if Elena did do the deed, who might have it been with? My guess is it's back to Mhoram. Many posters have said that Elena was very power-hungry, and this was a lot of the reason that she was so attracted to Covenant. I disagree with this, but if it is true, this would be a strong reason for an affair with Mhoram. During this time, Mhoram was the most powerful lord, as seer and oracle, retrieving the Staff of Law in the first book, etc. In Illearth War, Covenant was curious himself why Mhoram wasn't the High Lord instead of Elena. Therefore Elena could have easily been attracted to Mhoram. Also in Illearth War, when Covenant realizes that Hile Troy likes Elena, he asks him if Mhoram is also in love with her. In another conversation with Covenant, Mhoram tells him that Elena is indeed hard to refuse. Therefore, I could easily see these two having an affair in the past. Then of course, Elena probably dumped Mhoram as her obsession with Covenant grew. Mhoram's pretty stoic, so he could probably take this without letting it affect his duties.

Many posters have concentrated on the "gift of virginity" in the first book and when it was taken away from Lena as to why Elena would still be a virgin. However, I still wonder if that is really true. I think the crime against Lena was that it was rape (and that Lena eventually became mad) and not necessarily because he raped a virgin. I mean in today's modern world, people still somewhat consider a woman's virginity as a "gift," especially if you are religious. However, in the end, most people still have sex before marriage. I don't see why it can't be the same way in the Land. I think people get the impression that the Land is like the Middle Ages with monsters and magic, but people in the Middle Ages still had affairs. In the Second Chronicles, when Covenant and Linden became lovers, most of their crewmembers where happy for them even though they weren't married, and there wasn't an engagement ring on Dr. Avery's finger. (Not that they wouldn't have gotten married later, of course.) Of course, most people on that voyage weren't from the Land, so might have had different customs. Actually, one of the biggest arguments that the Land might indeed have been this place where people didn't have sex until they were at least engaged was that I don't remember anyone other than Covenant being involved in situations where the immediate potential of coupling would go on.

OK, now finally, here's my reasoning on why Elena did not love Covenant simply because she was power hungry. I think the reason was more star worship, like how teenage girls might get a crush on their favorite movie star or singer, along with a combination of mixing in her being grateful to Covenant for what he provided her and of course, her madness. In Illearth War, when Covenant first finds out that Elena is his daughter, he thinks that she would condemn him. However, Elena says that she is much like her mother, finding it easy to forgive Covenant especially considering his gift of the Ranyhyn. Later on, when Covenant tries to tell Elena that a relationship between the two would be incest, Elena states that she considers Triock her real father, and if Triock were not there, she would hate Covenant. I guess the point that I'm trying to make with the last statement is that if Triock weren't there to act as a step-father, Elena would not love Covenant no matter how power hungry she might have been.

Still, we're back to why in the world Elena would love Covenant other than she's totally mad. Hile Troy made it clear in Illearth War that Elena already had a huge crush on Covenant even before she ever met him. She was obsessed about him as he would say. I think the reason is looking back to how Elena grew up. As she grew up, she heard all of these stories of the Unbeliever, calling the Fire Lions, a hundred Ranyhyn rearing for him, etc, and most of the stories were all good stories that became legend. And of course, Covenant also gave Elena and her mom the gift of the Ranyhyn. It's like Liv Tyler seeking out her famous father Stevie Tyler when she was young, but much more because Covenant was the living legend who was still supposed to save the Land in the end. (In the Land during this time, you either believed he was the saviour or you hated his guts.) And Elena was right at the crux of this. Her step-father and grandparents abhorred Covenant with both Trell and Atiaran losing the Oath of Peace. Yet her mother Lena still loved Covenant even after the crime committed on her, and Elena was more her mother's daughter. Elena was still probably very confused growing up. However, she probably still wanted to prove worthy of her father's legend, and she eventually became a lord, and then High Lord. However, at the point of becoming High Lord, and she probably knew this when she was a lord also, she really really needed Covenant to save the Land. Before Covenant was summoned the lords tried all sorts of things, and they were found lacking. In book 1, Prothall tried to resign the High Lordship because he felt that the trials of the times were too great for him. However, Elena probably volunteered for it believing that she was fit. However, right up until the time to when the Unbeliever was summoned, she was very likely doubting her abilities similar to when couldn't crack Amok's question about the Seventh Ward. And at that time, Elena was one step from committing the Ritual of Descration. She felt that she had failed the Land, could not face this, and became obsessed with Covenant as the greatest hope. Mhoram during this time also believed that Covenat was the only hope although of course, Hile Troy disagreed. She probably started to confuse her need for him to help her get past these trials and save the Land, and her past star worship of him with real love, more than that of just a father. And when she meets him, he's not that much older than she is. And then he brings the krill to life, reaffirming her belief that he's really can save the Land. It can be argued that at the end of Illearth War, Elena tells Covenant that she is more than willing to bear the burden of saving the Land rather than putting the onus on him. Elena loves the Land, and she would be more than ready to save it rather than have Covenant do it for her. However, I think that she still has much more confidence in her abilities to do it when he's by her side, especially as a weapon of last resort. Again, back to the question of what's the Seventh Ward, Elena wanted Covenant to use the white gold on Amok to find the answer when she couldn't do it herself.

Oh yea, and of course, the last reason why Elena loves Covenant: she has that "otherness" which causes her to be way too passionate for things. :D
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Post by Baracka »

I dont think she was a virgin.

What about Lord Mhoram? Was he a virgin too?

If he was a virgin, then Elena was one too.

But think about it. They were humans, with human weaknesses.

I think there might even be a suggestion that Elena and Mhoram were at one time, lovers. There are hints of this. It is clear that Mhoram loves Elena, just like Hile Troy also loved her. 40 years is a long time. It's not impossible to think Mhoram and Elena had a tryst of some kind.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

Elena was irrational, and obsessed. If she says she saved herself for Covenant, I'll believe she's telling the truth.
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Post by Baracka »

Murrin wrote:Elena was irrational, and obsessed. If she says she saved herself for Covenant, I'll believe she's telling the truth.
Elena never told Covenant that.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

Ah, you're right - I've read the passage again (first time in quite a while I've read any of that book), and it seems I took meaning where there was none.
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Post by Roynish »

I always felt somewhat troubled by Elena's desire for Covenant. Donaldson really wrote himself into a corner here. Incestuous desires over a almost mythical hero figure are well strange waters for fantasy.
I guess this whole ethical, moral sexual dilemma was a purpose built thing that Donaldson conjured up. Elena is surely damaged. I see no clear resolution in this difficult area. Perhaps that was the intent.
This is not a gritty literary realistic chick lit novel with women exploring multiple males and the accompanying glistening prose. Its a fantasy novel. But one that has some very dark themes and incidents regarding sexuality at its core.
Redemption as always is at the core of the chronicles thematic. Covenant resists and defelects and is shocked. I am at a loss on this one.
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Post by burgs »

Back to the creativity part...

Did DaVinci have sex? Did Freud really say no to that? How in the hell could he possibly know? That's just unbelievable to me.

Anyway.

Oscar Wilde had sex on the mind, and look at his output.

That said, and this is probably far more than any of you want to know about me (especially given that yes, that is my picture, so you're looking straight into my eyes), when I was younger and sex obsessed I was practically worthless. When the obsession wore off, my worth increased - almost noticeably. :wink:
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Post by Nerdanel »

I just had a horrible light bulb flash in my head. I think Elena indeed was a virgin in The Illearth War but when she called herself Elena Foul-wife she wasn't. :( I think I squicked myself.

On a lighter note, Lord Foul could be called Covenant's ex-son-in-law. I'm not sure if that's better than being one's own son-in-law, though, but if you think like Covenant did that Foul is just an aspect of himself, maybe Covenant indeed is his own son-in-law.
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Post by NightBlaze »

I think whats being overlooked here is that this a much simpler place than the world we live in. Thinking along these lines, I would say it IS possible Elena died a virgin. Same for Mhoram.
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