Life of a Leper

[Skyweir]

oooh puhlease no nasty mama retorts!!

sure stick stuff up each others **&%$^#@ but leave the poor mamma's out of it ..

LOL .. and no we're not finished!!!!

you think i can walk away from Kaos' last post!! no way fella

my role here is simply to inject Kaos with a bit of sense and compassion .. lol .. jk Kaos old mate

If they weren't, then obviously the
townsfolk didn't kill him

man .. there were townsfolk there .. and Beren identified them as being involved but at the end of the day its a tit fight over semantics ..

The unmistakable fact is that TC was mistreated because of his leperosy .. he was alienated and threatened to make him leave the town. Now maybe 100% of the townsfolk werent involved .. good for them that werent .. but a lot were .. and a lot from further afield were too ..

I do not believe that LF would have had a hope in hell of manipulating Joan or any of the other absolute lunatics who were involved inTC's sacrifice .. had they not had a propensity or leaning to his control and possession ..

TC established this in TCTC .. if LF could just possess anyone and get them to do his will .. he would have done that with TC from the moment he arrived in the Land .. but he couldnt ..

Foul played on the bigotry and prejudice and small mindedness of his victims to make them do what he wanted .. imho ..

I can't see a little
kid sticking his hand in a roaring fire without complaint without some
kind of compulsion as happened in _The Wounded Land._

There are a tonne of sects in existence which through fervour and conditioning can make its victims do anything at all .. once they have surrendered themselves to that particular influence ..

The Mooneys come to mind .. and a whole heap of self-destructive loonie tunes out there ..

I don't think you can blame them for killing Covenant any more
than you can blame Marid for killing Nassic

I think these 2 scenarios are very different .. i'll tell you why later

They hated him because of Foul's control

NO they hated TC before Foul's control if you refer to those who knew of him .. and those that didnt .. these were people who would've hated him for what he was .. regardless imho ..

Eh. They could still have given him anti-depressants or counseling, put
him in contact with a psychologist to help him deal with his problems.

.. but that wasnt your original criticism .. it was why didnt they prevent him from leaving the leperosaurium ..

Covenant's life and health depended on a rigorous self-control and
ability to take care of himself. If he showed signs of being unable to
do so, wouldn't that justify harm to himself?

Not at all .. TC wasnt suicidal in r.l. and his militant adherence to the demands of his VSE assert that very fact ..

And you know, from personal experience, I have to say that it seems
to me that too many people with serious mental problems are let out
on the street

lol .. is that a small town thing? .. LOL .. jk

no in all honesty .. i agree with your point here

I guess, in short, if Covenant was always a loner than he really can't
blame people for not coming to help him in his hour of need because
he never got to know the people in his community.

.. we just cant say that .. we know only so very little about pre-leperosy TC .. and one thing we do know is that he was involved to some degree .. as he spoke to that womens group .. and we dont know what else he did or didnt know .. its just pure speculation ..

and I dont see TC blaming 'people' per se .. he does experience a general anti-TC the leper feeling in the town .. you acknowledged that yourself ..

His leperosy is not a guilt trip for him .. he cant be blamed for contracting this bizarre illness .. yet the townsfolk treat him like they are justified in shunning him ..

Joan's abandonment is something that he does spend a lot of time grieving over .. but this is sooo to be expected imho ..

Basically TC is punished for having leperosy .. and alienated and harrassed because of that one fact ..

and to me that is an uncharitable and incompassionate and unacceptable response .. especially when it came to the razor blades in his food and his property burned down .. this is unsupportable behaviour .. no matter how much of a loner he might have been .. or how unfriendly or arrogant he may be accused of being .. imho ..

[Skyweir]

danlo this is a discussion forum .. and lol .. sometimes some folk discuss stuff extensively .. but its not at all offensive and no one has resigned to being abusive or profane .. so its all good .. so long as it remains healthy ..

I personally am enjoying Kaos' pov .. even though i personally dont agree .. but i dont have to agree .. cos thats the beauty of conflicting view points .. you cant debate an issue if there is a consensus of opinion ..

[danlo]

Sky wrote:

TC established this in TCTC

Well thank goodness this didn't happen in the Gap Saga!

Sky wrote:

danlo this is a discussion forum

damm I've been on the wrong site 4 2 years!

It's just very painful 2 watch u guys smash each other back and 4th like this, especially w/all this Sky wrote, Kaos wrote jazz It's like crazed Sandgorgons subbing 4 Rocky and Apollo Creed.

I don't find any of this abusive and profane--I find myself abusive and profane it's just painful, especially when u argue endlessly about info not provided by the author...

Sky wrote:

Beren identified them as being involved

who is Beren? The singer's boyfriend? Surely u mean Berensford?

Sky wrote:

Foul played on the bigotry and prejudice and small mindedness of his victims to make them do what he wanted .. imho

&

Kaos wrote:

I don't think you can blame them for killing Covenant any more
than you can blame Marid for killing Nassic

and in response Sky wrote:

I think these 2 scenarios are very different .. i'll tell you why later

I argee, but I'll let Sky explain. At least u guys r finally getting in2 fresh territory--but when u go round and round about the same old...it's not a debate, it's a headache!

U see it's not the debate I object 2 it's the elongated posts and what looks like u 2 smashing foriegn objects over each other's heads with all this constant
Sky wrote:
Sky wrote:
Sky wrote:

I'm sure I'm not the only 1 who sees this--we'd like 2 get in2 the debate 2 but u guys make it look like it's ur xclusive sandbox...and it's, it's just not fair...

Fist and Faith wrote:

ROAR

p.s. 2 F & F's mom I apologize...but as 4 ur daddy...

[caamora]

Danlo, who cares if they smash each other back and forth? - as long as they don't smash you over the head!

And, by the way, you are abusive and profane . (just kidding! )

[KaosArcana]

Skyweir wrote:

m sure I'm not the only 1 who sees this--we'd like 2 get in2 the debate 2 but u guys make it look like it's ur xclusive sandbox...and it's, it's just not fair...

Just kidding, Danlo!

Sure, feel free to jump in. Sky and I didn't mean to shut y'all
out.

[KaosArcana]

danlo wrote:

Kaos wrote:
Quote:
I don't think you can blame them for killing Covenant any more
than you can blame Marid for killing Nassic

and in response Sky wrote:
Quote:
I think these 2 scenarios are very different .. i'll tell you why later


I argee, but I'll let Sky explain. At least u guys r finally getting in2 fresh territory--but when u go round and round about the same old...it's not a debate, it's a headache!

I obviously disagree with you and Sky, danlo, but I think that's just
an indication of the richness of the text. It's subject to interpretation.

To me, the fact the people snapped out of it after Foul's defeat indicates that they were possessed by him and not responsible for their actions.

Sky:

The unmistakable fact is that TC was mistreated because of his leperosy .. he was alienated and threatened to make him leave the town. Now maybe 100% of the townsfolk werent involved .. good for them that werent .. but a lot were .. and a lot from further afield were too ..

How do you know that "a lot" were involved?

I do not believe that LF would have had a hope in hell of manipulating Joan or any of the other absolute lunatics who were involved inTC's sacrifice .. had they not had a propensity or leaning to his control and possession ..

So you're blaming them because they were susceptible to his control?
Covenant himself believed that it was Joan's guilt over leaving him that
left her open to Foul's control ... her self hatred. We have no way of
knowing why he was able to control the others, but I don't think we
have to assume it was related to their hatred of Thomas Covenant.

TC established this in TCTC .. if LF could just possess anyone and get them to do his will .. he would have done that with TC from the moment he arrived in the Land .. but he couldnt ..

Well, he and his Ravers possessed people all the time in the First and
Second Chronicles. (Come to think of it; wasn't there an actual Raver
in Joan? Wasn't that said somewhere?) I can't imagine that someone
like Kasyren would be capable of things that Lord Foul wasn't, and he
was sure that he would be able to take control of Covenant.-- that
was the whole reason Linden gave him the idea to call on Nom: to
prevent Kasyren from possessing Covenant before he could defend
himself.

Quote:
They hated him because of Foul's control
NO they hated TC before Foul's control if you refer to those who knew of him .. and those that didnt .. these were people who would've hated him for what he was .. regardless imho ..

Imho, Foul just chose people who were susceptible to his control and
sicked them on Covenant. I don't think a personal hatred of Covenant
or lepers was required.

Basically TC is punished for having leperosy .. and alienated and harrassed because of that one fact ..

and to me that is an uncharitable and incompassionate and unacceptable response .. especially when it came to the razor blades in his food and his property burned down .. this is unsupportable behaviour .. no matter how much of a loner he might have been .. or how unfriendly or arrogant he may be accused of being .. imho ..

Well, I'm not advocating a "burn out the lepers" policy, Sky.

I'm just saying that I don't think the guy would have been a lot of
fun to get to know after his leprosy struck ... and I prolly would not
have liked him BEFORE it struck.

[caamora]

I realize I'm coming in on this discussion at the end of it (sorry!) so please forgive me if I say something that has already been said.

I agree with you, Kaos, about the possession thing. However, I think that the reason that Foul never possessed Covenant was either fear or TC's own stubborness. Foul may have been afraid to possess TC for fear of TC's power. He was, after all, the White Gold Wielder. Foul was unsure of TC's actual strength.

OR-

TC was just too darn stubborn to be possessed! Someone had called Covenant's adherance (sp?) to his leporsy training as "militant." How accure that was!!! TC IS militant about his about his self-preservation. He wants to live - not die crippled and ugly and rotting! His leporsy is in a state of being arrested and he wants to keep it that way! Maybe the wall he has built around himself was enough to deter Foul from trying possession.

Then again, all this has to do with belief, doesn't it? Peoples belief in things can make them suseptable to all sorts of crazy things - like possession! Someone who does not believe in God or the devil will not believe that possession is possible. So, it stands to reason that these people who were possessed by Foul (who, it can be safely assumed, also previously hated TC anyway just for being a leper!) believed in the possibility of possession. Joan, I'm sure, believed in possession and by believing it, was helpless to stop it. These people just succumbed to the fear. I think that is why TC is never possessed. He NEVER succumbs to fear. He NEVER stops fighting. He NEVER gives up!!! He is tenacious.
AND, HE IS THE UNBELIEVER!

That's my two cents, for what it's worth!

[KaosArcana]

caamora:

Then again, all this has to do with belief, doesn't it? Peoples belief in things can make them suseptable to all sorts of crazy things - like possession! Someone who does not believe in God or the devil will not believe that possession is possible. So, it stands to reason that these people who were possessed by Foul (who, it can be safely assumed, also previously hated TC anyway just for being a leper!) believed in the possibility of possession. Joan, I'm sure, believed in possession and by believing it, was helpless to stop it. These people just succumbed to the fear. I think that is why TC is never possessed. He NEVER succumbs to fear. He NEVER stops fighting. He NEVER gives up!!! He is tenacious.
AND, HE IS THE UNBELIEVER!

So then why is Linden able to be possessed in WGW?

Covenant believes in possession. He's seen it happen. He says
about Joan, "She is possessed."

Linden asks Covenant why Foul doesn't just make them into
Ravers, and he says that if Foul did that they would just become
his tools, so it wouldn't work: it was about the necessity of
freedom. (I'm wondering if a Raver-possessed Covenant could
even use the white gold.)

And I STILL don't think we have enough evidence to assume the
cultists all knew and hated Covenant and would have hated him
even if they had been in their right minds.

[danlo]

2 me the image of Foul in the fire coupled w/Joan's condition and the "cultists" single mindedness of purpose indicated sheer possesion and had nothing 2 do w/hatred. Joan doesn't hate TC--Foul honed in on her on purpose, 2: "give back something broken." The cultist appeared "simpleminded" so mayb they were ez targets. Hatred or being townsfolk doesn't matter Foul's efforts (which must have cost him a helluva lot of energy) would have possesed any ez target regardless of emotion or affiliation.

What I mean by "simplemindedness" is not that they were nesc. "dumb" (ergo: my inbred trailer park joke) but simply less complex and disciplined persons.

In regards 2 Foul's efforts I always assume that's y we don't see Foul 4 a very long time in the 2nd Chrons. 1st he spent 10 of our years coming back 2 his old self and setting things up w/Clave, etc...then expended all this intense energy on our world---he desperately needed time 2 recharge...

[Ryzel]

Foul would not let his ravers possess TC because then they would have access to the white gold. This is assuming that they could have used it in that case, not being given it.

The other possibility is that the ravers would not possess TC because Foul did not want to deprive him of his choices. (Remember that it is all about leading TC down the road to despair so he will give in and give up the ring.) Being possessed by a raver usually had some serious detrimental effects on people (Linden seems unusually resistant) and the whole process might have invalidated the white gold.

[danlo]

Linden was also a murderer, so 2 speak, which is interesting-re: her resistance. Her dad prob toughened that resistance 2...

[Skyweir]

wow some really great points raised here .. and it is good to see danlo getting into the 'Kaos said' 'Sky said' quoting game lol

you see the reason it was just the 2 of us .. saying stuff mostly .. cos it was pretty much just Kaos and me interested in this issue .. but now with all these brilliant additonal insights .. the discussion has gotten even more interesting

and to be honest .. i was getting tired of the level of nit-picking .. but the conflicting views were genuinely presented

I agree with Kaos that TC clearly did believe in the act of 'possession' .. so belief couldnt have been the deciding factor ..

I think danlo may be right .. in that he manipulated those he considered ez prey .. ez targets .. These folk in our world that were possessed

.. I think their possession was not the same as Linden and even Marid who were possessed by ravers in the Land ..

Those involved in the cultish movement to hang draw and quater TC <sacrifice him in cold blood> seemed to be possessed in some kind of metaphysical way which Foul had some level of control over .. in that the hosts that LF chose in our world were those that were susceptibel to being possessed

.. maybe the hosts were easily lead by such evil influence LF could provide .. and/or .. maybe as danlo says .. and I agree .. they were just 'simple minded' .. thus ez targets/prey ..

whereas in the Land .. the ravers could easily enter a host whether they had a susceptibility to being possessed or not .. regardless of their independant will ..


there is a subtle distinction between the 2 forms of possession .. between that which occurred in the Land and that which occurred in our world ..

I think ryzel makes a perceptive point that LF in no way wanted the ravers to possess TC .. and thus allowing them access to the ring of power ..

I do not think LF did not himself possess TC because he thought he was too stubborn either .. LF believed he could corrupt TC .. thats why he gambled with TC's presence in the Land .. afterall .. who better to give in to despair .. than a man in his prime who had everything he valued taken from him .. and left only with a ravaging disease .. leperosy .. who better to place a wager on folding .. ??

LF didnt possess TC because he couldnt .. and he knew that even if he could it would avail him nothing .. as Kaos said .. LF could only obtain the ring from TC if given freely by TC to him ..

LF believed TC weak .. but he did not possess a propensity to being possessed .. he was not weak minded .. far from it .. nor was he susceptible to an outsiders control ..

oh and a side note .. there was no head bashing as far as I am aware in this thread .. intense posting yes .. but i think it has remained respectful and has developed into an even more interesting discussion thanks to all of you ..