The Mahdoubt

[Luke The Unbeliever]

Very good point CovenantJr...I figured it was a stretch to say that she was the healer as apposed to just being descendant. But either way, I think she wants Linden to pay attention to her clothing.

Because, I see several scenarios:

#1- A Parallel storyline-
The Unfettered Healer dresses Covenant in white samite. Later Covenant's clothing is stained green from Moss. When Covenant awakens in our world he is wearing a white hospital robe with green spots on it.

Linden's clothing stained by the grass, and the Mahdoubt's mention of the significance of clothing especially to Linden.

Are we being told that Linden may yet survive in our world ? If this be true, would that tie the Mahdoubt to the Unfettered Healer in a repeated character kind of way ( associated with healing?) Maybe that's a little too far fetched, but just a thought.

#2- Linden's clothing has been marked with the necessary Runes needed for the NSoL and the Mahdoubt is trying to convey that to her without coming out and just saying it, considering SRD's choice of description for the stains. This to me, doesn't seem so far fetched.

#3- I've drunken a bad Diet Coke and am just talking nonsense

...I dunno, but it's always easy it seems to tie things together with the TCoTC....I guess that's how SRD has concieved 10 books for the series.LOL

any body else see what I am ? or should I just shut up ?

[CovenantJr]

#1- A Parallel storyline-
The Unfettered Healer dresses Covenant in white samite. Later Covenant's clothing is stained green from Moss. When Covenant awakens in our world he is wearing a white hospital robe with green spots on it.

Linden's clothing stained by the grass, and the Mahdoubt's mention of the significance of clothing especially to Linden.

I did notice that, immediately upon Linden noticing those stains. My regard for SRD is too high to believe he unwittingly used the same idea twice. I have to say, I think if these stains do have any significance, it'll be something to do with the earlier significance of TC's stains, but in what way... Well, I'm stumped.

[Nerdanel]

There are many interesting ideas, but I'm most willing to believe that the Mahdoubt is Esmer's (twin) sister.

Esmer is integrated on the outside and conflicted on the inside. The Mahdoubt is the other way around. Children inherit different genes from their parents. The Mahdoubt appears to be the total opposite of Esmer in every way, including gender. I think she has inherited the best and most moderated emotional traits from her parents, her steadfastness from her father and her caring of others from her mother (I think the merewives wouldn't be that bitter if they didn't care and care a lot), making her more balanced than either. Esmer has all the incompatible emotional extremism that mars both the Haruchai and the merewives.

As for Mathriim's recognition of the Mahdoubt, I think the reason is simply that he has seen her before because The Mahdoubt came from outside the Land and settled in Revelstone I think both to serve and because she was indeed mortal although long-lived and growing old, unlike Esmer again. As the Ramen have no telepathic lore or photographs, they would not recognize on sight historical personages particularly when they are not expecting them. Granted the Mahdoubt would have given cause for a unique description, but Mathriim's reaction doesn't point to that he was comparing her to a checklist of traits. I think the Mahdoubt used her power to cloud Mathriim's recollection so as not to alert the Haruchai, who don't know her true identity because she is strong enough to mask it from them. I think the Haruchai wouldn't exactly like to have the Mahdoubt around if they knew who she was and what she could do.

[richardb]

I think that you have it with esmers sister.
The one thing that struck me was that the ramen was sure for a moment that he knew her. He made comments that for a momement she appeared someone esle. Someone HE KNEW.
Who does he know? Esmer is the only figure of power he knows, unless perhaps he was there when the elohim visited his people, which could support an elohim.
But... the idea that she and esmer are opposites really makes sense. He serves the chaos represented of his parents, and she represents the solidity of their love.
Great theory.

[The Leper Messiah]

I have not read many of the recent postings so I can not be sure if this idea has been brought forward.

Could the Mahdoubt be from the future? If a caesure is a rent in the fabric of time, then could it not also bring someone from the future into the land. If we looked hard enough might we not find pieces of fabric from some of our characters already making up part of her dress. She seems to have a smattering of forsight and a magical quality... perhaps she already knows what is to come. The thought that freaks me out is the possibility that there is a patch of a flannel shirt or some denim somewhere on that dress!!!!

[Usivius]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: It makes me laugh that a character who is in the book for so little time, has generated such a huge post!
It's a credit to SRD's writing style that has developed over the years. I think if you look back at the first two chrons. there was never a sense of 'mystery' as there is in this one.

Maybe we can get a new emoticon: the Mahdoubt! Used to punctuate a posting that is strange and/or mysterious....

hint hint...

[wayfriend]

Could the Mahdoubt be from the future? If a caesure is a rent in the fabric of time, then could it not also bring someone from the future into the land.

It was stated in Runes that ceasures tend to move forwards; going back in time is possible, but only if someone controls the ceasure.

Besides - how soon would a paradox destroy the Arch of Time if the ceasures were regularly picking people up and moving them back in time!

The one thing that struck me was that the ramen was sure for a moment that he knew her. He made comments that for a momement she appeared someone esle. Someone HE KNEW.

I dispute that he KNEW her. I don't think that that is implied at all. What happened is that the Ramen saw 'someone else' for a moment. But not someone that he knew.

[finn]

It was stated that they run forward but can be traversed backwards at great risk. I think this is basically saying "yes its possible but the stakes have to be pretty high". Going back to avoid breaking a nail would not cut it. But then we are into judgements about what is a high enough threat to warrant such a risk, or rather Linden etc are. Perhaps in the future, the placing of the Mahdoubt in Revelstone at that time is considered pivotal to ensuring the survival of the arch. Personally I don't think it to be the case, but I do think it could be and if the possibility exists its fertile territory to explore.

On the other point, I can't remember the exact phrase, but 'recognition' comes to mind, the Ramen "recognised" something inside the Mahdoubt that suprised him, I'd recognise Liv Tyler but could not claim to know her (more's the pity). The impression I remember clearly was that it was non-threatening, which I believe to be significant. I'll have to look it up when I get home....Oh well back to work.

[Corruption]

Could it be that the Mahdoubt is somehow connected to Lena/Elena? The Ramen would "recognise" her from both characters' long-term association with the Ranyhyn, and the breaking of the Law of Death may have consequences not yet felt by the Land. I guess Elena would be more likely, as she knew Revelstone well (I believe there is no mention of Lena ever having visited there), however I'm not sure she would necessarily appear as friendly as the Mahdoubt, her soul already having been tainted by the Depisers touch. Plus, wouldn't the Haruchai recognise her? I'm not sure, but it's another possibility (and as another of Covenant's ex-lovers, would be sure to annoy Linden a lot).

Corruption.

[KAY1]

There were so many posts I couldnt wade through them all but has anyone mentioned the possibility she may be connected with an Unfettered one? I only say this as in TPTP the unfettered healer spoke of the gifts of clothing etc the people of the Land gave in thanks?

[NightBlaze]

I think its Hollian. Maybe time has altered her in some way so that she cannot be recognized.
Just a theory.

[Nerdanel]

For convenience's sake, I have compiled a list of suggested identities:

Alatar
Amnioni/professional tennis player
Amok
Atiaran
Berek's Queen
Caretaker of the Land's animals
Creation of Creator
Creation of Jeremiah
Creation of Joan
Creation of Lord Foul
Creation of the Old Lord (not a Ward)
Creator
Combination of Covenant and Bannor
Elena
Elohim Appointed
Elohim non-Appointed
Esmer
Esmer's sister
Expression of Earthpower
Haruchai woman
Healer of Morinmoss
Hollian
Hynaril of the Ranyhyn
Jheherrin
Karen
Kastenessen
Kastenessen's lover
Kelenbhrabanal
Kevin's Ward
Lady Alif
Lena
Loerya's daughter
Lord Amatin
Lord Foul
Lurker of the Sarangrave Flat
Manifestation of injured time
Merewife
More than one person, returned from death
Normal, kind old lady
Pallando
Personification of the Law
Personification of Revelstone
Radagast
Remaining Lord, or what passes for it these days
Saruman
Skurj
Someone with a croyel
Suru-pa-maerl brought to life
Thomas Covenant
Vestige of the One Forest

[ur-bane]

You forgot one: The Mahdoubt. Her own identity.

[Usivius]

... second!

[Nerdanel]

After careful deliberation I have come to the conclusion that our store of utterly unlikely crackpot theories on the Mahdoubt's identity is not sufficient. Here are some more.

Foamfollower

The Mahdoubt's eyes are a dead giveaway. They symbolise the sea and the caamora, both defining parts of the Giantish psyche. The Mahdoubt is also talkative and pleasant as befits a Giant. She lives in Revelstone because that place holds a special significance for Giants.

As for the Mahdoubt being female, there is a simple explanation. Foamfollower was all along a closeted transsexual. He never mentioned it in the First Chronicles because the Giants of Seareach with their diminishing numbers did not appreciate alternate sexuality. His/her sexuality is why s/he is never mentioned to have a girlfriend.

The returned-from-dead Foamfollower enjoys her female body. She lacks the lore to make herself a beauty with regular features, but she prefers the type of men who are attracted to her for her personality, so she doesn't mind it so much. She already had to study a lot of magic to make even this incarnation possible.

Joan

If we accept the theory that Thomas Covenant could have fragmented somehow, he need not be the only one. Joan is also a white gold wielder and very much involved with caesures. The innovative point is that the caesures are not purely instruments of self-harm. With every caesure Joan gets more and more insane because she is instinctively flinging away sane and healthy slices of herself. Those slices aggregate, imperfectly, to form the Mahdoubt, who is growing stronger all the time. In the Mahdoubt we have an unbiased glimpse of all that was best in the old Joan with whom Covenant fell in love.

High Lord Kevin

Kevin is very likely the most powerful human in the history of the Land, and he has a grudge to repay. This time Kevin knows with the Law of Life being broken he has the chance of getting back to Lord Foul, but only if Foul does not know that Kevin is there, since as a dead person Kevin can be commanded. But Kevin is a smart fellow and strives to act and look as little like himself as possible.

Future Linden

So it happened that Linded screwed up royally and came to realize it. But all was not lost. Linden still had the Staff of Law and on her quest she had gained an intimate understanding of time. She knew she had a possibility of fixing everything if she acted very stealthily in order to avoid unnecessary damage to the Arch of Time. She could even meet herself in the past if she took care not to reveal her true identity.

It's no wonder the Mahdoubt and Linden get on well together. After all, they have everything in common. Also, the unresolved sexual tension between Linden and Liand is replicated between the Mahdoubt and Liand. Only, the future Linden has had the time to notice and reciprocate Liand's interest.

Sandy

Roger brought Sandy to the Land but Lord Foul had no idea what to do with her. Absentmindedly, he gave her to Joan who made her ugly and sent her away to kill herself in despair. What nobody counted on was Sandy finding happiness and learning to do magic, in which she had a natural talent. I think we can say the Despiser is seriously overworked and in need of a vacation, since the Sandy case must be among the top 5 most embarrassing things to ever happen to him. (Sandy is also the long-prophesied savior of the Ramen people which is why Mahrtiir recognised her.)

Nom

After rending Sheol Nom grew to understand that brute force is not the most useful thing in the fascinating, intellectually-stimulating world and trained himself in diplomacy and various magical skills so that he was suited to play a tourist without attracting undue notice. Everyone will think the Mahdoubt is a nice old woman until the beginning of Fatal Revenant when she singlehandedly makes mincemeat of the Demondim and incidentally wrecks the gates of Revelstone yet again.

An Arghuleh

All right, that is a pure joke.

[wayfriend]

I think we can eliminate anyone who would not need to disguise herself or himself. E.g. why would Foamfollower need to appear as an old cleaning lady?

BTW, here's where Mahrtiir sees the Mahdoubt for the first time:

Mahrtiir peered through the dimness. "She serves?" He sounded surprised. "Yet she is -" He hesitated. "There is that about her which -" Then he shook his head. "Perhaps I am mistaken. To the Mahdoubt, he added, "I crave your pardon. My concerns have misled me."

And later, he describes what he thought he had seen.

"Strange -", Mahtriir murmured, gazing after the woman. "For a moment - a moment only - I seemed to see another in her place. Yet the seeming was brief. It mystifies me."

There's nothing that indicates recognition.

'I seemed to see another in her place.' means, for a moment, he saw something else. Could it be he saw, with his health-sense, some of what Linden saw?

Now she became more vivid to Linden's health-sense than any of her companions; more distinct than the stone of the halls. The Mahdoubt's presence shone in the dimness, lambent with abundance and implications. She seemed to command a personal dimension which was at once more ordinary and more numinous than any other place in the Keep.

That bit about distinctness reminds me of Covenant's perceptions as he enters and leaves the land: some things become more concrete, some more ephemeral. BTW, this seems to happen at the same time Covenant is approaching. It's as if proximity to Covenant makes her more real.

On the other hand, if 'the seeming was bried', then he may not be talking about what his health-sense reveals; that would be constant.

[Nerdanel]

I think I should have been clearer that my previous post was a tribute to the unlikely Mahdoubt suggestions seen in this thread and should not be taken seriously. I might have been a bit too plausible in my justifications, though. The Mahdoubt is just too easy a target to pin semi-plausible suggestions on.

I am not and have never been seriously claiming the Mahdoubt was really Sandy or Nom or a transgender Foamfollower or a reborn Dr. Berenford or Linden's mother or Britney Spears or anyone like that. I remain of the opinion that the Mahdoubt is most likely Esmer's sister. If not that, I'll say she is a modern Lord equivalent.

[dlbpharmd]

Wasn't the Ramen's Land sight blunted somewhat by Kevin's Dirt in those two instances, Wayfriend?

[wayfriend]

Wasn't the Ramen's Land sight blunted somewhat by Kevin's Dirt in those two instances, Wayfriend?

No. I believe this occurred shortly after she 'recharged' them. But that's easy enough to check.

After thinking a day, three things stick out for me.

First, if it was a health-sense-given perception, it would not be 'brief' (as I said). But more importantly, if he had seen what Linden had seen, he would not have become defensive of Linden: what Linden saw was, if anything, as benevolent as one could imagine. But whatever it was Mahrtiir saw, it made him worry about Linden's safety.

But I don't think what Mahrtiir saw seemed dangerous. He would not have accepted Stave's assertion that she was okay, and craved pardon. He would not have only interposed himself between Linden and the Mahdoubt; he did not draw a weapon, or yell 'Ware!', etc. I would say that he behaved as a bodyguard does when a stranger approaches - he took a warranted precaution. So Mahrtiir's vision was most likely something he did not recognize, nor something he expected to see in Revelstone, but not something that seemed overtly menacing.

Two: 'She serves?" For Mahrtiir to express his incredulity in this manner is the single clue we have to what he saw for that moment. Someone could be unlikely to serve because they are too malevalent, or because they are too wild, or because they are too elevated. Ambiguity!

Lastly, I had earlier dashed off the idea that the Mahdoubt seemed to be becoming more potent as Covenant approached. This idea is gaining a lot of traction with me ... I'm wondering if it is more true than I first realized. Her 'brief seeming' may have been triggered by Mahrtiirs unfamiliarity - but what is special about Mahrtiir? Could not the brief seeming have been triggered by the approaching riders?

Of course, it could be Jeremiah's presense instead of Covenant's. Or Foul's (if he is somehow attached to either of them).

[Nerdanel]

Am I imagining or was there just recently a post by danlo saying that according to SRD we are all wrong about the Mahdoubt?

danly, was that a cruel joke, or do you have knowledge that all of our 55 (according to my last count) suggestions are wrong? Or is it that you thought none of us had come up with it but then noticed that we actually had? (Possibly in my batch of joke suggestions after the big list? IS the Mahdoubt a Future Linden after all???)