Lack of a Hero?

[Lord Mhoram]

Exactly, Skyweir. Sure, hes a jerk and all, but its only because he was shunned here. Hes not the jerk, its all those bastards in his town!!!Like that damned sherrif!

[Skyweir]

yes thats another valid point .. The guy was treated like the outcast he felt he was .. he was a leper .. it was like having the plague .. no one wanted to be any where near him ..

Then .. here in his dream was an attractive (presumably but not necessarily) young girl .. who was in awe of him .. who saw him as some legendary hero .. who swooned over him .. It couldnt have been real .. that sort of attention was not part of his 'real' life experience was it? Far from it ..

yeah the townsfolk were vile .. the vilest beings imaginable .. all lacking in any discernible humanity.

Sure he was a jerk .. all through the first few books in fact .. I hated it when he tried to cover up what he had done .. fought the reality of what he had done ..

but in truth .. to him it was a very real dream .. and thats all ..

[Lord Mhoram]

In the First Chronicles, he was the Unbeliever. The Land was a dream to him, he couldnt let his guard down, he was a leper. But in the Second Chronicles, he wasnt called the Unbeliever muc. I dont think its a coincidence that SRD called him ur-Lord or Earthfriend more then Unbeliever because he wasnt really the Unbeliever anymore. His doctrine was no longer "keep moving, surivive" it was now "save the Land" or something like that . Anyway the point is, I think he believed in the Land in the Second Chronicles.

[caamora]

Sky and Mhorham -

I have read your above statements and other statements on other threads and - with all due respect you two are really starting to sound a little sexist and kind of are justifying TC's rape of Lena. You don't excuse LA's murder of her mother or extend any understanding of Linden Avery's circumstances, - LA is a power-hungry, murdering bitch - but , gee, you sure do make exuses for Covenant. Forgive me, but I have a little bit of difficulty with that. You may say that "murder" is worse than "rape", and we could get into a whole other discussion of degrees of crimes, but "rape" and "murder" are both very serious crimes.

Now I already know some of the arguments that will come my way for what I just wrote! And I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. This is just my none-too-gentle way of letting you know that you really sound as if you guys just hate women (for lack of a better way of putting it!)

Also, understand that between the two, LA and TC, I also prefer Covenant. I don't much like LA - I sympathize with her - but I also think that she is unstable.

And so, I wince at the oncoming attack as I click the "Submit" button...


I

[Lord Mhoram]

Caamora- I respect you for writing that and your opinions, but let me just clear a few things up. I am not sexist, my views on LA and Covenant are not based on sex.
I am not trying to justify Covenants rape of Lena. I just think people sometimes forget Covenants circumstances when he comitted that crime. He thought it was a dream, and was under a lot of pressure. Ive made it clear thats what I think. LA isnt a bloodthirsty son of a bitch or however you put it, but her crime was in the real world, and it was her mother. Let me say again, these views arent based on sex. I feel like a politician now, justifying everything I say.

[caamora]

Mhorham - Re-read what you wrote above and then read what you have written on other threads in this discussion board. You extend forgiveness for Covenant (I do too!) for Lena's rape. You say he was shunned by his fellow man - everyone was horrible to him. He was brought to the Land by evil purposes - all true!!! What you don't do is forgive Linden for all the abuse she suffered at the hands of her father and mother. You said in the other thread that you "hated her". What am I supposed to think?
You make it clear that she is bad and he is good. But when they both have committed horrible crimes, you can't say one is forgivable and one isn't. It seems that we all have agreed that the Land is real. Just because TC wouldn't accept the Land as real doesn't mean that his crime was any less real.

I see TC and LA as very parallel characters. They are both main characters. So how can you judge them so differently?


NOTE: Please understand that I am not angry - rather, I enjoy a good debate and I think this is a good debate!

[Lord Mhoram]

I, too, love debates, especially this one!
OK, I have re-read my statements on this dsicussion and on others, and I havent changed my opinions. I agree with your statement that Covenants crime was real, even though he thought differently, BUT you have to put into consideration that Covenant thought he was going insane and was in some fictional Land and that meant the crime was also fictional, or a figment of his imagination. However, LA's equally bad crime was in the "real" world, and she knew exaclty what she was doing, and knew that what kind of consequences her crime would have. Back to Covenant, hes in a dream, so what does it matter, right? He found out LATER that his crime was real, and so were the consqequences.
About my statement, "I hate LA", maybe I didnt use the right word. I dislike her. Hate is a strong word. Regarding your statement about judging these two key characters differently, I am judging their acts and the situations they were in. OK, I believe that covers about everything. Please reply!

[danlo]

I'm not necessarily trying 2 defend LA but her Mother was driving her insane and her Father warped the hellfire out of her by killing himself, i.e. teaching her a very bad lesson on the "value" of life. The other bad lesson was love, "I never loved you anyway"--Her parents do have 2 take some of the responsibility 4 her behavior..I'm not saying LA killing her Mother was justified, in the least..but some may see it as a "mercy killing"--a very volitile subject of debate. Looking back LA never looked @ it that way, however, and never 4gave herself--thus depriving herself of love. Her parents gave her a pretty unreal childhood and almost no love whatsoever-but, yes, the reality of murder, or even "mercy killing", is a far cry from the unreality of rape in a precieved dream. It just shows that we have 2b accountable 4 all our actions, whether in dreams or reality, cause (as seen in many cases of skitzophrenic actions in a delusional or hallucinagenic state--w/very real consequences) u really never kno...I precieve I'm rambling, am I making any sense?

[Skyweir]

WOW!!!! Caamora .. you just knocked my socks off in shock!!

How is it that we/I sound sexist exactly? And I would never justify the act of rape .. there is no justification for rape .. and I do NOT hate woman .. at all!!!!!! I really need to make that point very clearly!!

You don't excuse LA's murder of her mother or extend any understanding of Linden Avery's circumstances, - LA is a power-hungry, murdering bitch

Actually I thought we did explore some of the pressures on LA that existed as a result of her childhood experiences and her witnessing of her fathers death. We explored these issues on this and another thread actually .. and agreed that she had far more to deal with as a child than she should have. Of that and those terrible experiences there is no question.

As far as her mothers death is concerned .. that was a 'real' and active decision of LA's to kill her mother .. not a mercy killing .. no .. The mother never asked for LA to releive her of the burden of life .. NO!! Mayhap you say .. but it was a mercy extended to her mother by LA .. Then I would be compelled to say .. that if you believe that is a mercy killing then in it there is not mercy .. but cold clinical utilitarian action only .. lacking the involvement/volition or the wishes of the one with the terminal illness.

Something akin to the policies of 1940 facist Germany .. were the sick and the disabled were terminated as a means of relieving the burden inflicted of sick and suffering sectors of the populus on society.

LA was not in authority to take life .. not even as a mercy killing if it were legal in her state .. Her mother had not given her that authority or even besought that favour from her ..

LA's actions though shrouded in the mental unclarity of her past experiences .. were tantamount to murder .. Now I am not suggesting that we should not have compassion on LA for her wretched life experiences .. the lack of love in her life .. the scars of emotional abuse by her parents .. or the effects of witnessing her own fathers death ..

She did move on with her life .. desirous of making amends for the past .. by becoming a medical practitioner as danlo said .. and made a pretty good one from all accounts and information we have before us in the chrons. She was a great companion for TC and the only one worthy of his love .. and possessed of the integrity not to judge him or be afraid of his illness .. IN all these things she was a wonderful woman .. and did a great many good things in the Land .. ultimately healing it from the effects of the sunbane ..

Clearly the Creator .. knew had she been given a better start to life .. she would have acted differently .. he saw great potential in her .. and so do I ..

As far as her involvement in her mothers death .. in her own reality she killed a person .. she acted knowing it was not asked of her nor was it right ..

but , gee, you sure do make exuses for Covenant

TC .. his scenario is somewhat different .. and it is sad that he is a male .. so you could see it is not a sexist differentiation made here .. but an objective gender neutral assessment of the 2 seperate circumstances ..

TC ... did not believe he was awake .. he believed he had fallen into a dream .. an unusual one .. but still a dream .. In it he regained his sense of feeling ..deprived for a long time .. in it a young girl seemed to see him as some legendary hero reincarnated .. he felt the sting of sexual arousement .. It was a dream .. a fantasy .. a rape .. it also was a wrong .. but you cant be convicted for your dreams .. but as danlo said .. we need to be aware of our suggested accountability for our dreams and our thoughts .. perhaps that is right ..

His rape of Lena was a wrong .. of that there is no question .. I am disappointed that you would read from our postings any other message ..

I wish he had answered for this wrong more adequately in the books .. He seemed to get away with it more than I would have liked ..

In the Land it was a wrong .. one not perpetrated with full cognizance of the circumstances .. he did not believe Lena existed .. nor the Land .. nor any part of his dream .. He came to learn that he was wrong in this ..

Even before he learned the 'reality' of the Land .. he regretted his actions albeit a dream to him .. that was the level of the acuity/acuteness of his conscience ..

I do believe if he was faced with a Lena in his own 'real' world ... he would never have forced himself on her and raped her .. I dont believe his internal right and wrong monitor would have allowed him to act so heinously.

To fantasise is not uncommon .. and to TC he threw himself into a fantasy/dream .. and that is not a crime in this world .. (though it was a crime in the Land all the same)

To physically smother the life out of some living breathing person and carefully secrete the evidence of that act .. is a crime in this world ..

If LA had been male my assessment would be the same .. it is an objective assessment of the facts as they have been presented in the books.

In the Gap series .. rape raises its ugly head again .. The perpetrator has no excuse of justification for his behaviour imo .. and even though he endears himself to the victim .. I see him in terms of his rape of the victim .. still guilty for his crime regardless of his newly discovered 'conscience'.

[caamora]

Gentlemen -

Your arguments are very valid andexactly what I expected. I was reading attack after attack on LA. Yes, you did mention her horrific upbringing, but I didn't read any forgiveness for her. Throughtout the 2nd chronicles, all LA does is berate herself. She sees herself as evil. But where everyone is busy forgiving TC, (I earlier used the word "justified". Perhaps I should have used "forgive") no one had any forgiveness for LA. And, let's face it - historically women have been saddled with the blame - all the way back to Eve! There seemed to be very little compassion for LA.

However, after reading your posts you have convinced me of your good hearts and pleasant natures and I stand corrected.

To be honest, I'm surprised none of you accused [/i]me of male-bashing!

[Skyweir]

Caamora .. you are most gracious in your comments .. but it must be admitted that not all are gentlemen .. although having said that .. it must be conceded that the majority of Watchmen here indeed are -> 'good of heart and pleasant of nature' .. in this you do not err ..

If you wish to speak of forgiveness for LA .. I am not sure I understand. Personally I do not - not forgive or forgive LA for her actions regarding her mother or against Ceer.

I have compassion for all she has been through .. and can mitigate the severity of her actions by a knowledge of her personal history. Taking LA's perspective it is not hard to appreciate her motivation regarding her mother .. and to a lesser degree towards Ceer. But what about Ceer? How must he have felt when staring at a sharp spear aimed straight down his throat .. if she had succeeded in killing him .. what then? Sure her past experiences would provide her a credible defence .. but after Ceer's death .. what of the Haruchai? of his family and loved ones? What of the victim of LA's actions?

Do you understand where I am going with this? LA's condition is appreciable .. everyone has their cross to bear .. in our society we dont excuse murders and acts of violence because someone has had a difficult history .. that history can be a mitigating factor but can never constitute an excuse .. you dont forgive someone from killing another because they have had a horrendous life .. lots of people endure horrendous lives and dont murder ..

If she wasnt in her right mind and was unable to distinguish right from wrong .. then that is excusable .. but she was able to distinguish the wrongness of her actions .. as she admits in her own narrative ..

So do I forgive LA? To be honest with you .. I am not sure ..

Clearly fantasising about raping a vulnerable young girl is still morally reprehensible but it doesnt make him guilty as it does LA who in her/the real world .. committed her crime while in full possession of her faculties ..

In its simplest form .. I do have trouble getting past her actions re: both her mother and Ceer.. but I am more forgiving of her actions against Ceer .. because even then her actions seem to those of an automoton .. clearly not in her right mind .. thus creating an excuse.

[danlo]

U guys have bashed the whole thing in2 the ground 2 the extent that I am beginning 2 think I'm crazy 4 enjoying books about murderers and rapists! The more u talk about it the uglier the books r beginning 2 look, in my eyes--I guess I MUST read the 2nd Chrons again 2 find some way 2 justify Linden Avery--right now I can't...I can't justify TC either...both of them never 4gave themselves---pooh happens--nobody's perfect...

[caamora]

Sorry, Danlo, for grinding this discussion too long!

Skyweir-I agree with everything that you have said from the beginning! Yes! Off with LA's head! She is a murderer! I just couldn't see any forgiveness for her. Hey - if you don't forgive her, more power to you! It's certainly not for me to judge (try as I might! ha-ha).
You guys are truly gentlemen and I am honored to be allowed to participate in such an intelligent group. Now maybe I should try to be more of a lady!

You know, I was thinking about this subject this morning and it occurred to me that in the first chronicles, TC is a jerk (we all agree on that). But then, maybe, in the second chronicles, even SRD forgives TC. The Haruchi, in a sense, forgive him; TC is written in a softer light. He is more likeable. He does more of the right thing. Maybe SRD wrote LA to be the antagonist for the readers. Because, to be honest, it seems we even like LF better than LA!

[Lord Mhoram]

Yes, to tell you the truth I like LF more then LA. But, Caamora, I want to say again, I dont hate women! I am just more "sympathetic" for Covenant (not because hes a man) because of his scenario. Thats all Im trying to say.
About saying LA is a murderer, would you say Covenant is a rapist? I wouldnt say either comments. LA has murdered, but while technically since she has murdered, is a murderer, she isnt a murderer at heart, if you follow. Covenant a rapist, one reading LFB for the first time might have that impression, but that, too, is not the case. I am sympathetic to LA (I agree it doesnt sound it!) but not equally sympathetic to Covenant.

[Prince of Amber]

For my twopenny worth - Linden never forgave herself for killing her mother, indeed she calls it 'the act that shaped her life' . She does hear her mother saying 'Please God Let me die' and as she regains herself, after saving the quest in the dungeons of the Sandhold, she thinks she hears Ceer say the same thing (when he actually says 'I must fight' or something like that)

And at the risk of a cyber-lynching - It is just a book. The rape and the murder are used to develop characters, I don't want to read good vs evil books where the characters are one dimensional, those awful David Eddings books are good examples of what I mean. So I am very glad that TC and LA are such complicated characters, their past alows them to defeat despite in such a believable and dramatic way. What I'm trying to say is - Isn't this why we love the books so much?
Maybe I'm defending Linden because I'm a big fan, but ultimately I'm a much bigger fan of SD.

Remember the saying ' You never really understand someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes'

[amanibhavam]

whoa what a mighty debate here and I missed the whole of it...

I agree with you Your Highness Amber

Neither Covenant nor Linden wanted any forgiving for themselves - remember TC's long anguish that everybody was willing to put aside their hurts in order to help him
so I do not think forgiveness has any relevance here; we do not need forgive any of the heroes; we have to admire the process by which they redeem themselves

[danlo]

Yes that is the whole point, isn't it Amy? I feel much better about the books now...(invaluable 2 pennies PoA, btw!)

[Skyweir]

actually YES!!! .. I totally agree with those comments

Caamora .. no need to feign agreeance carte blanch m'lady .. (I never said I didnt forgive her .. I also dont see how my forgiveness is even relevant) ..

What I said was ..

'to be honest .. I am just not sure'

.. and I was genuinely expressing my truly honest and heart-felt opinion. I eally am not sure .. I do truly envy you your surety and your resolute stance ..

.. I have never had an interest nor an inclination to instigate a be-heading in honour of LA!!

I prefer a more objective stance re: the issue .. one where facts are acknowledged and assessed in an atmosphere .. which .. as far as possible .. subjective defensiveness is kept to a minimum.

.. also I am not in the business of inciting lynch mobs for LA either ..

even though it may seem that I desire only to berate LA .. I loathe senseless criticism and pointless put downs ..

I have not explored this issue to pursue such a course but rather my interest is contained to exploring the ethical questions raised by the actions of LA in her youth .. and more important than all this is as 'amy' has eloquently appraised .. the 'process by which both characters redeem themselves' .. we just hadnt got to that yet .. .. though we have acknowledged LA's value to TC .. the quest .. and the Land .. and her worth as a medical practitioner in our world.

I do not think forgiveness has any relevance here; we do not need forgive any of the heroes; we have to admire the process by which they redeem themselves

These 2 complex characters both rose from great depths .. and it was indeed their triumph over their own inner despair/personal turmoil/whatever .. that made them both ultimately the victors/hero's they always had the inner potential to become .. and which the 'Creator' immediately indentified.

.. and yes if it weren't for the brilliance of SRD for creating such credible complex 'multi-dimensional' characters we wouldn't be having such an interesting discussion re: these issues .. and we can have such discussions without sarchasm .. maybe? .. and without .. attacking each other.

I do shudder each time I read SRD's narrative re:LA's personal account of her killing her mother .. I also do feel for her tragic upbringing .. but I still shudder ..

I admire her triumph and journey/quest for personal redemption .. what strength .. what courage!

I love the strength and conviction of her character .. that she was the one to give TC .. long awaited requited love and loyalty!

I dont hate her .. she is not my fav character .. but I dont hate her ..

to hate her .. would be akin to hating myself .. as there is undoubtedly a little despair in all of us .. and perhaps a lot more weakness and things to be overcome in all.

[Andelain Hills]

For what it's worth, Caamora, I really like Linden Avery. She did a lot of good.

[caamora]

How succinct, aminbhavan (sp?)! And how graciously you put that

....we have to admire the process by which they redeem themselves.

And thanks, Andelain Hills!

Big group hug!!!