Destroying the Bill/Lab

[drew]

I saw the Bill, as almost a carbon copy of Holt. Only, he took it one step further, and didn't hideIllegal-ness.

Deaner Beckman also had some similarities to Holt--he secured himself away on a planetoid, had his own personal guards protecting him, and thought that he was right, and most other humans were wrong.

The Fact that Billingate, and the Lab were both destroyed, seemed to me like a foreshadowing of what was to become of Holt.

[Nathan]

The destruction of Billingate seemed like the dawning of a New Era to me. No longer could pirates go to trade with both other illegals and the amnion in one place, and no longer could known (and proven, on the run) pirates get their ships fixed. No legitimate human station will do the work for them.

The death of Billingate was a huge blow struck for the UMCP and humanity.

I haven't really addressed your point at all. Sorry.

[Revan]

No, I don't think Holt would have headed in that direction. He had other methods. For example, he sold materials already to the Amnion. He had no need to set up Bootlegs shipyards.

And humanity wouldn't have let him get away with such things... you heard Norna:

"You can't make peace with them, human beings wouldn't let him get away with it, and if he goes to war, he'll lose everything he wants from the Amnion; so he needs this hostile truce."

I can't remember the exact words Norna said, but the basic points that she was trying to convey to Warden is up there in that quote.

Human beings wouldn't have let him do such a thing.

And as for the Bill and Deaner Beckman being almost cardon copies of Holt... I disagree; oh, I agree that they shared some traits, but so did many other characters...

Holt was actually, in his own mind, doing the best he could for human kind. So was Deaner Beckman... the Bill wasn't, he was doing the worst.

[Usivius]

...but one thing all 'evil' characters do have in common is a high level of selfishness. All of them are motivated by power and self satisfaction. Nothing is done for the 'greater good' of others, regardless how much Holt puts his own spin on it...

[Revan]

I don't believe in evil...

Oh, I know people can be vile and inhuman towards others, but I don't believe in evil...

The fact is, everyone, from rapists to priests, from mass murderers to charity workers, believe they are righteous. No matter how much people say "I'm opened minded to other peoples point of view", that is false. We believe that our points of view are right; and truly the proper way to look at the world.

[Usivius]

whoops! sorry, I was talking about the world of fiction. The many grey facets of our real world are too complex to term in good and evil (although I beleive there are truly 'good' people).
I was referring to 'evil' characters in stories, such as Gap...

[drew]

So who was more of a Bad guy, the Bill, or Holt?

Interesting how both the Bill, and Deaner liked to surically enhance their staff...although I think the Bill was a little more forcefull--I see the Bill, Deaner, and Holt (since he liked to make Cyborgs too) as being very Amnionish.

[Usivius]

whose more a bad guy?... well, I consider them both of the same 'badness', but Holt's aim was much higher in the scheme of power. I think the only level of difference was how they treated people. For Bill, it did not matter who you were; he dealt with people on a business level. He likely would not kill anyone, regardless of how much he hated them, if they could pay.
Holt, on the other hand, was known to kill people who rubbed him the wrong way.
But I think both men's 'crimes against humaity' (I'm hearing that a lot these days in the news...), were equal in their level of 'evilness'...

[Revan]

Holt killed anyone who was a threat to him... A quote from Min in ADAHGA:

"The Dragon had no history of harming those who apposed him unsuccessfully; his malice was reserved for his effective oppontents."

As you see, Holt didn't kill on a whim, he killed because he had something to gain by it.

[Usivius]

Well, perhaps I phrased that incorrectly. "rubbed the wrong way" seems to frivolous. But take the example of killing (can't remember his name -- the former Protocol officer for UMC)... he was basically an only slightly effective toady who grew some balls. By killing him, it only paved the way for a more effective person to be instilled .. in this case, in the form of Kiona.
Holt would have been better served keeping 'whatshisname' alive and trying to turn him back to 'proper servitude'.
In my mind that was Holt's anger getting the best of him... He wasted one of his handy kazes on him...

[drew]

You're talking about Godsen.

What Holt did to Godsen was almost genius.
He sends out a kaze, then tells him to come to HO.
If Godsen Obeys, the Kaze would have worked as a threat against Warden...if Godsen dissobeyd (as he did)--Boom!! Holt doesn't have to worry about him anymore.

[Usivius]

I still think it was foolish and a little petty. For such a tweeb like Godsen (thanks for the memory jog), you risk an investigation (and he HAS to know how effective Hashi can be), and getting someone new appointed who can actually do a good job for the 'other side'.
For HOlt, who has such long-reaching goals, it was a foolish move. He has to know that even if he gets Davies and can get immortality as he wants, it is going to take a while to arrange it secretly, and maintain power. This attack starts a chain-reaction of investigation that spells the doom for him...
It's foolish.
---having said that, I realize how necessary it was for the story and is a great turn of events.

[drew]

Although, I don't think he knew at the timethat there even was a Davies.

Also Holt, probebly figured that Hashi was in his back pocket too, and that when the whole ID tag stuff was figured out, Hashi would just keep quiet about it.
Holt wasn't counting on Hashi suddenly getting a concience and begining to hold Warden in such high regard.

[Usivius]

<nodding> ... fair point. I have no counter to it ...

[Revan]

Hasi was never in Holt's back pocket. On the contrary; several times Hashi stated that he had loyalties only for Warden. That it is only Warden that he obeys, not the Great Worm or the Council...

Yes, some could say it was a foolish move, and I would say it was... because if he had not sent any kazes against anyone, nothing would have happened to harm his empire... because remember, the Council were about to submit to Holt, then Lane Harbringer called and told the Council of what Holt did...

To be honest, I am suprised Holt allowed the Council to exist... I would have thought someone like him would have them all blown up as soon as he got his power...

But I suppose he had to give humankind the illusion that they were living in a democracy...