"Darkness threatening the heart of the Earth"

[Nerdanel]

I've been reading through the Gradual Interview and found the following quote:

The short answer is that, yes, it's an effect of the Sunbane, which is after all a corruption of Earthpower (the "energy" that enables health-sense) rather than of the actual sun, and which must in the beginning have been developed by small increments, changes that took generations to affect the people of the Land.

So Kevin's Dirt looks a lot like an early symptom of the Sunbane. I suspect that since the Staff of Law also contains Vain in addition to Findail the effect isn't exactly the same as with the Sunbane. I think we will see something even nastier. Just to hazard a guess, I think there will be a magical darkness over the Land due to Vain's contribution to the Staff and this will be one of the reasons for the name The Last Dark.

Lord Foul didn't (directly) cause Kevin's Dirt like he said. It was Linden's creation of the Staff.

[Nerdanel]

The main page didn't update after my last post. I hope you can now see that I have replied.

EDIT - Doesn't seem to be working.

[Vain]

Let's see if I can fix it

[Vain]

Testing

[Vain]

Testing

[wayfriend]

In the Spirit of F&F I'd like to throw out this moldie one:

I've had an idea about the answer to the question I raised a few replies back.

I really can't buy into the idea that the other Elohim are so worried about Findail's fate. [...] All in all, I think that the outcome that Felice and the other Elohim were avoiding at TC's cost was not the Findail piece, but something else!

Then I was discussing something on the Theories topic which led me to examine an SRD interview, which led me to something that I think is germaine. It wasn't that the words gave me the idea so much as that they helped me realize I was maybe on the right track.

The two stories together are a kind of moral hierarchy: the first one is relatively simple concerned with muscle; the second is a test of sacrifice in relationships - Covenant can't save The Land alone in The Second Chronicles , and neither can Linden Avery. It takes what they can both give, and what they can both give up, to save The Land.

(Emphasis is mine.) At some point I would like to draw up, or discover where someone has already drawn up, a list of parallels between the First and Second Chronicles. Until then, it is firm in my mind that the Elohim are, in some respects, the Hile Troy of the Second Chronicles. Which is to say, they are a Covenant foil, even a specific kind of Covenent foil - a foil which illuminates The Wrong Way To Go.

So on to my hypothesis: The Elohim have the power to save the world, but they are unable to tolerate that they cannot do this without assistance.

This is why they are ill disposed towards Vain. He represents a view, one which they might very well find to be correct, that this time the world cannot be saved by just the Elohim. That there is another necessary force in the Earth which provides what they lack. (And it's certain that they lack - the resolution of Vain's mystery asserts this.)

This is why they imprisoned Vain, and didn't destroy him, and then essentially let him go. They had to admit that he might be necessary.

Certainly the Elohim demonstrate the haughtiness on which this theory rests.

This Elohim conflict highlights by contrast the plights of Covenant and Linden. Covenant cannot save the Land by himself either. But he, unlike the Elohim, can find a way to deal with that. And the same goes for Avery as well.

We know the Elohim lie. When they say "He is a peril to us" et. al. they are being misleading without outright lying. The peril represented by Vain is not the peril of destruction, but the peril of truth. Indeed, he was directed with great skill to coerce them from their path - the path of arrogance which suggests the world will not be saved unless it can be saved by the Elohim solely. Indeed, they "will never endure" it.

Today, I would say that the Elohim are unable to correctly understand the relationship between Linden, Covenant, the ring, and the salvation of the Land. Because they cannot understand relationships which include sharing. The Appointed represents the sole way that they understand sacrifice - and it rests on a sole single person.

[burgs]

From a post in 2003

Absolutely. When you've lived so long and have acquired so much power, I suppose arrogance becomes second nature. The Elohim were used to doing things on their terms. In their minds, only they knew what was best for the Land.

This raises an interesting question - to me at least. What have the Elohim done? What have they done on their own terms, other than sit around, maybe drink some decent wine from buttercups, and held their nose when the stink of other races came close to their home, the "center of the world", I believe they said. I know that one of their Appointed (I can't spell the name) was sent to quell a terrible threat against the Earth, but aside from that, what have they done?

We have debated and discussed who and what they are. But my question is - with all of their power, what have they done?

[Sunbaneglasses]

Quite simply is the new Staff of Law tainted or less in harmony with earthpower somehow because Findail was made to be a part of its creation against his will?Fits in with SRD's theme of freedom of choice.

[drew]

I always felt, that the Elohim are-or at least think that they are, the Protectors of the Earth--not the people of the the Earth, but just the Earth.

They never helped Berek, or Kevin-they never helped any Giants trapped by the Soulbitter, they never helped the Bratharians--but they did (try to) help save the One forest-and they wanted to do something about the Sunbane--but still not stop Foul--they'd rather stop Covenant.

Why stop Covenant instead of Foul?

The only way for Foul to destroy the Earth (his prison) is with the White Gold--so stop Covenant, get rid of him...get his RING-and they won't hav to worry about Foul getting it--so any other wars Fould may cause--any more banes like the Illearth Stone he may get his hands on are moot to them, because Foul will only harm the people of the Earth, not the Earth itself.

[drew]

I always felt, that the Elohim are-or at least think that they are, the Protectors of the Earth--not the people of the the Earth, but just the Earth.

They never helped Berek, or Kevin-they never helped any Giants trapped by the Soulbitter, they never helped the Bratharians--but they did (try to) help save the One forest-and they wanted to do something about the Sunbane--but still not stop Foul--they'd rather stop Covenant.

Why stop Covenant instead of Foul?

The only way for Foul to destroy the Earth (his prison) is with the White Gold--so stop Covenant, get rid of him...get his RING-and they won't hav to worry about Foul getting it--so any other wars Fould may cause--any more banes like the Illearth Stone he may get his hands on are moot to them, because Foul will only harm the people of the Earth, not the Earth itself.

[Aleksandr]

Re: Berek didn't necessarily put the Guardian there to prevent the creation of another Staff of Law. Findail said it was "so that the vital wood of the world's life would not again be touched or broken." Maybe Berek knew that, if ever a new Staff would have to be made, it would need to be made in some other way.

Two points about this:

1. At the beginning of WGW Covenant and Linden demand some answers from Findail, and from him they learn that Berek set the Guardian. Covenant then wonders to himself if Berek, supposedly gifted with propecy, had determined that it would not be necessary to ever make a new Staff (obviously he wasn’t a very good prophet then) or if there were some other reason. That’s where I derive the idea that Berek did not want a second Staff to be made
2. In the Gradul Interview SRD has made the point several times that the events at the One Tree were in fact crucial to the creation of the new Staff since Vain’s arm was transformed into wood—in effect Vain bears with him the substance of of the One Tree and this goes into the new Staff. When SRD is a bit flummoxed by fan questions like this he doesn’t pretend to know what he’s talking about or invent answers of the fly, but in this case he’s pretty certain so it does seem he has planned something all along with regard to the new Staff/One Tree issue.

[Fist and Faith]

*rubs hands together* I can't wait to find out what!

[dlbpharmd]

I'm afraid we're about to find out that making a new SoL was not a good idea.

[Fist and Faith]

I hope we're not about to find that out! I don't think it could be. The ur-viles made this perfect creation for that purpose, which Foamfollower apparently agreed with. The Elohim thought it was necessary. The Earthpower couldn't be fixed on its own.

Actually, the creation of the first SoL might be seen as the problem. Yeah, the Earthpower thought it should be done so the humans could understand it. But neither the Earthpower nor any Lords ever expected white gold to come along, probably the only thing that could destroy the SoL, nor what the result would be.

[Variol Farseer]

There's something in that, Fist. But I don't think white gold was the only thing that could destroy the original Staff of Law.

'You had aid,' the deep voice said. 'The Staff was too hard a matter for you. You would have destroyed it in simple irritation, had I not taught you some of its uses.'

That's Foul talking to Drool Rockworm. So Drool must have had access to some form of power that could destroy the Staff. Of course, Mount Thunder was chock-a-block with such powers: the Fire-Lions, the Illearth Stone, the lava flow where the ur-viles destroyed their failed breeding experiments. Any of those might have had the power to destroy the Staff, and we can be pretty sure in context that at least one of them did have that power.

I suspect that the Earthpower (and/or the Creator) guided Berek to create the first Staff because it was the least risky way to patch up damage that had been done already. Kastenessen's doom, the rise and decline of the Colossus, the slaughter of the One Forest, were all in the past by Berek's time, and samadhi had possessed the King of the Land. Probably the Earthpower was in as much peril then as it would ever be in the absence of white gold. Extreme measures for extreme dangers, but not a safe thing to have around once the crisis was past.

[Nerdanel]

Drool unearthed the Illearth Stone using the Staff of Law, so he couldn't have destroyed the Staff with the Stone before learning how to use the Staff. I assume simple lava or even some less mighty things could have been enough to destroy the Staff. After all, it was wood although a very special wood.

Possibly the only beings to have used the Illearth Stone before Drool were the Demondim. However this brings about the problem of why someone like Lord Foul couldn't have made a caesure point to the Illearth Stone earlier. My best attempt at explaining this is that it only came possible to use caesures for things like that after Joan started creating them, and the Demondim had only learned of a theoretical possibility which they immediately put to practice when it became possible. The other possibility is that using the Illearth Stone from a distance is so dangerous or prone to being interrupted that allowing both the Illearth Stone and the Staff of Law to the hands of a Cavewight was actually the prudent choice.

[burgs]

Regarding the possible destruction of the Staff of Law, it is certainly conceivable that such power in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to wield it could lead to disastrous results. Kind of like playing with a loaded gun - although it's not a perfect analogy.

[Xar]

I'm not sure Chant is right. I think the cause and effect might be the other way around. Elohim are notoriously arrogant.

This topic reminds me of this interesting quote which may or may not be off-topic:

"Fool! I have no heart. I have only darkness. For that reason, I strive to free myself. [...] For that reason, I do not relent, though my torments are endless. For that reason, you may no longer oppose me.

"No mortal may stand in my path. I have gained white gold, and my triumph is certain."

I think Lord Foul reveals a lot of himself here, but I'm not sure how to interpret it. Perhaps it means that since he is darkness and corruption it is torment for him to be imprisoned with light and goodness.

I see Foul's statement in a slightly different way... his claim of having only "darkness" undoubtly stems from the fact that, as the Enemy of the Creator, and not a part of the world, he once dwelt in the darkness where the Creator crafted the world. As such, his "torments" are probably of a different nature - it's existence itself that torments him. To his eyes, the world and everything in it are probably a scab, an "infection", if you will, into the perfection of emptiness and darkness to which Foul longs to return; he is, from this point of view, the personification of the stagnancy of darkness. If this is the case, it is easy to see why he hates the Creator and wants to destroy him: by his very nature, the Creator destroys the stagnancy and timelessness of the darkness Foul embodies, by creating time, life, and an everchanging world. Even if Foul destroyed the world, and returned to his perfect darkness, he would still try to destroy the Creator, for no other reason than the fact the Creator could always create another world.