Foul the Christian

[Worm of Despite]

Here's the necessary background: I've been improving vastly at college, such that I made all As this semester and brought my GPA up to a 3.6. I've also been branching out in my philosophical journeys, such that I'm reading the major works of Stoicism and Taoism.

Hard to explain, but I just feel more "involved" with the world picture. I want to plant roots with my RL community--something I would have detested a year or two ago. Perhaps it's the recent successes, I don't know. Secondly, I've always considered myself a very pious person, despite my years of atheism. It's hard to explain, but I've always found a life of consistency a source of strength. I love dealing with absolutes, knowing I'll be doing A and B; it's almost like a cleansing ritual. My mindset is very much open to a spartan lifestyle or the cloistered existence of a monk. Probably a load of whitewash, but that's how I feel.

So, since there are no Taoist pagodas or schools of Stoicism where I live, I suppose Christianity is the only thing closest to the "consistency" factor I'm looking for. Therein lies the rub, though: were I to become a Christian again, I would only be doing it to gain attachments. I'd be joining the "faith" in order to sate this growing need for security/community and nothing more. It wouldn't be out of genuine belief/acceptance of the existence of Jesus as Christ.

But is that so bad? If I join a church and it gives me the peace I'm searching for, and I in turn give to them something lasting/beneficial from my being there, then it can only be a good. I'd be living a lie, yes; I wouldn't be able to reconcile myself with the fact that I don't believe in God's existence. But sometimes presenting a lie is more helpful than the truth, such that a false compliment is more endearing than a blunt fact.

Anyway, there's my big lump of ore. Trash it, smelt it, don't care! Anything from you folks is always helpful. Just don't tell me to "just do it!"

[Fist and Faith]

I recommend you try the Unitarian Universalists. Am I remembering right? Rome? www.uua.org/CONG/index.php says there's one at 304 Coker Dr, and one on 165 Dodd Blvd.

In theory, UU could be exactly what you're looking for. In theory, any given member may be a Christian, Jew, Hindu, Wiccan, or anything else, but it is generally accepted that all paths are equally good. And, any path can be about self-realization, enlightenment, and all that jazz, rather than God. I went to one near me a few times, and felt very welcome.

You likely noticed my use of the words "in theory." That's because, in practice, things don't alway work that way. I used to correspond with a woman whose UU congregation was largely anti-God. "I'm an atheist, and I don't want to hear any mention of God!!" Hello, idiot, do you see that the symbols on the door are a cross, Star of David, symbol for Om, etc? But if enough militant atheists attend, I suppose they could give the place an un-UU atmosphere. So if you try one, and it seems wrong to you, try the other. It could be very different.

Also, I think most places have a minister, or some sort of preacher, who gives a sermon once each month. The other Sundays are lay-sermons. Anybody has the opportunity to give a sermon, on whatever your beliefs are, both to educate others, and to celebrate your beliefs. One time when I was there, a guy led some sort of ceremony about renewal. I think it was during an equinox or solstice. "The old gives to the new," as a senior gave a piece of apple to a child. "The new gives to the old," as a child gave a piece of apple to a senior.

Um... I guess that's it. heh

[matrixman]

LF, you had always been a marvelous defender of atheism here at KW. Now you are apparently turning your back on it. If you had said it was some spiritual epiphany that led you to take up Christianity, fine. But you say you're turning to the Christian faith simply as a matter of social convenience. Well, if you feel it's important to publicly affirm yourself as part of a particular denomination, then so be it.

I'll just refer to you from now on as the Former Atheist Known As Lord Foul.

[Worm of Despite]

If you had said it was some spiritual epiphany that led you to take up Christianity, fine. But you say you're turning to the Christian faith simply as a matter of social convenience.

Social convenience is never simple, though! I know this, because I've been an atheist since 17 and I've made it a point to not let my colleagues, family, or friends know. I guess I stock up social connections with spiritual revelations, but then that's just the sociology talking.

And I'm still an atheist, heh. Yes, at some point I'll return to my theistic roots, but it will probably be when I'm a teacher or professor--when community ties are all the more important.

But you're right. I'm not going to defend atheism anymore, even though I still profess belief in it. Something tells me Master Lao would take offense. Or maybe not. Either way, I'd like to think that Taoism has mellowed me out to saber-rattling.

I'd also like to think my atheism has evolved throughout the years. It began in my teenage years, where I was openly attacking religion. Then it became respectful of religion but still there was a defensive stance. Now, asking me to "stand up" for my beliefs is about important to me as asking me what my favorite football team is (I'm not a sports fan). I've come to recognize that residing within my belief and defending my belief are two different forums. One is a cushy couch, the other a heated arena. I'll take the couch, thanks.

It's always been about comfort for me. When I was uncomfortable with being a Christian, I changed. Uncomfortable feelings are starting to niggle, and I'll change again if they continue. Here's hoping they don't. I hate getting up on Sundays (unless it's for oatmeal).

[matrixman]

Ah, you're a complicated one, Foul. That must be why I always find your topics in the Close to be among the most thought-provoking.

Sorry if I seemed very critical of you...but you did want something more from us than just a perfunctory "we support whatever you do coz we luv ya" reply, correct?

You're right that "social convenience" as I put it isn't that simple. My reply may have been a little glib. I'm concerned as to how Christians on this board may react, since your conversion to their faith still
"wouldn't be out of genuine belief/acceptance of the existence of Jesus as Christ" as you said. So does that make you a "fake" Christian? Would it be considered blasphemous? (I ask because I honestly don't know.)

Your friends in your community may never know the truth, as it were, but you've kinda admitted your lie to the Watch here. Good grief, I just realized what you've done: you've alienated both atheists and "true" Christians!

I'd also like to think my atheism has evolved throughout the years. It began in my teenage years, where I was openly attacking religion. Then it became respectful of religion but still there was a defensive stance. Now, asking me to "stand up" for my beliefs is about important to me as asking me what my favorite football team is (I'm not a sports fan). I've come to recognize that residing within my belief and defending my belief are two different forums. One is a cushy couch, the other a heated arena. I'll take the couch, thanks.

Like I said, you're complicated. But I like what you say here. The couch is certainly preferable to the arena.

[Plissken]

There are many communities available to you that adhere to societal ideals, LF. There is really no need to bring religion into it unless you feel a need for religion itself. I'm not saying this to cast judgment on you - indeed, I really believe that the transition to adulthood is marked by the decision to name oneself as part of a community - I'm just saying that you can choose a community that mirrors your beliefs instead of the other way around.

[Sunbaneglasses]

Am I correct?It seems like you are looking for a sense of belonging and community?Become a Scoutmaster .Get friendly with some Masons?Seriously do not compromise yourself and your beliefs out of the need to feel a part of something.What you are suggesting would be kind of like me joining the KKK to be part of something even though I do not believe in the superiority of the white race.

[[Syl]]

Have you thought about the military, Foul? I generally don't recommend it to people (it's a decision you really have to come to on your own), but it might fit what you're looking for. Structure, codes of honor, brotherhood, ceremony, and all that. And the whole physical fitness and stoicism thing... *shrug*

[Worm of Despite]

Sorry if I seemed very critical of you...but you did want something more from us than just a perfunctory "we support whatever you do coz we luv ya" reply, correct?

Yeah, my mind's definitely not made up; I often lean one way or the other, depending on how hard the wind's blowing. I mean, there's definitely some stance-taking-stance-untaking going on within me, due to the fact that I'm an atheist even contemplating a return to the faith. And yeah, definitely not looking for "go for it Foul" answers. In that context, your response was most welcome!

What you are suggesting would be kind of like me joining the KKK to be part of something even though I do not believe in the superiority of the white race.

Excellent point! Then again, I don't think the Christians are as naughty as those KKK folks. Not since they ate people at Ma'arrat al-Numan, anyway.

Have you thought about the military, Foul? I generally don't recommend it to people (it's a decision you really have to come to on your own), but it might fit what you're looking for. Structure, codes of honor, brotherhood, ceremony, and all that. And the whole physical fitness and stoicism thing... *shrug*

My grandfather's crazy antics during Korea and Vietnam does engender one with a deep awareness of the military, so I've often contemplated it. It's definitely viable. If I did do it, it would be right after college. There's definitely some great benefits, for sure: Tricare and whatnot--money for grad school too I'm sure. At the moment, it's a bit of a distant dream, though--kind of like playing guitar with David Gilmour. Well, not that distant.

[Plissken]

Peace Corps?

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

Quakers?

I don't say that to be a smart-ass. I've always thought that if I actually had a religious revelation of some sort, I'd become a Quaker. The whole peace-loving, quiet prayer thing would be nice to be part of, if I were a religious person. But I'm not. So, no fuzzy-warm feelings for me.

If you're looking for a sense of community but don't actually have any true religious leanings, consider something like long-term volunteering. Be a coach, mentor, tutor, visit the elderly, work at the animal shelter, etc. The people you help will remember you for a long time, possibly for the rest of their lives. If that's not putting down community roots, I don't know what is. Looks good on a resume, too.

I agree with the others - don't compromise your beliefs just to achieve a sense of belonging. You may come to resent the group you join, and/or hate yourself for getting swept along by something you don't agree with.

[Plissken]

On the other hand, my best friend from childhood married into the Mormons. It was right after the year he lost both parents, and he was searching for a family. Mormons fit the bill.

We don't see each other often, as his wife doesn't like me, and there's not much we have to talk about anymore (his Father-In-Law/Bishop said to me once, "Oh, no. We don't seperate them from their old friends - we just keep them too busy with church activities to see their old friends." I thought he was joking at the time, but now it's not so funny.), but he seems happy enough when I see him. A little run down, maybe. Sometimes I see a little flash of the kid I grew up with, but it's almost immediately cloaked with this wierd-ass guilty smile.

Be very careful which community you choose, Brother Foul.

[Sunbaneglasses]

Sunbaneglasses wrote:
What you are suggesting would be kind of like me joining the KKK to be part of something even though I do not believe in the superiority of the white race.


Excellent point! Then again, I don't think the Christians are as naughty as those KKK folks. Not since they ate people at Ma'arrat al-Numan, anyway.

Perhaps a little extreme,sorry but I just do not see the point in joining in something you do not believe in.In such a case you have two choices,either convince yourself that you believe,or live a weekly lie.Is either option consistant with your ideal self image?Or your ideals?

[[Syl]]

I love Mormons; I grew up Mormon. But yeah, watch out for the converts. They're generally the only ones I don't get along with.

[Worm of Despite]

In such a case you have two choices,either convince yourself that you believe,or live a weekly lie.Is either option consistant with your ideal self image?Or your ideals?

But being a Christian (or in my context, living a lie) wouldn't be so alien. For one thing, I was a Christian. And as for the lie part: I've been claiming to be a Christian in all public and private forums (except this one). Gotta keep my WASP privileges, y'know!

You're right, though; neither are ideal for me. The more thought I give it, the more impractical Christianity seems. I mean, I'm typing this at 10:29 on Sunday morning; I could be at some church in stuffy dress clothes! Heh.

I'm not sure how it will pan out for me, yet. Maybe it will be moving to a new country (Britain is very high on the list). Or perhaps my future career as a teacher will be the fulfillment I'm seeking. Or the Discourses of Epictetus, which I will soon be reading. But I just know now that something is going to happen--that, one day, I'm going to do something that will bring me closer to a community. For now, it's just something I'm going to have to give time.

Anyway, thanks guys. I think I have all my eggs in a row; or at least, things are in order now. If I join the Foreign Legion, I'll drop a note before I leave!


P.S. And just for the record, I suppose some of this was brought on by attending a required "Intro to Christian Canon" class. I found it very interesting, and it increased my appreciation of the faith. There's lots of great practical wisdom to be found in the ol' book, but there's still stuff I don't agree with. Like, for instance, the whole thing about that dude who died and arose from a sepulcher. So shoot me!

[Plissken]

Again, I applaud the fact that you've begun to think about what community you will name yourself as a part of so early in your life: I let those decisions lie fallow until after I had become (and ceased to be) a husband, father, etc.

I truely think that, if I had found community before taking on the defining roles in my life, I would have been more successful at my roles.

Make you decision carefully, and then commit to it, whatever it is.

[Fist and Faith]

If you are currently having any religious feelings, I say go explore them. If they aren't anything specific, I still recommend UU. Or read Conversations With God. IMO, it's a fantastic book that very nicely shows how many religions can be viewed just a little differently, so that they become a unified thing of beauty. If you recall, I posted its version of the 10 Commandments:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4788
I particularly like 3, 6, and 8.

If anyone ever gets any Christian feelings, and doesn't know what to do with them, or is reluctant about them, I always recommend the Stephen C thread:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1743
Furls Fire always welcomes comments, questions, or anything.

If you aren't having any religious feelings at all, but just want community, how about something like the Elks? Personally, I don't have any use for a club that doesn't have female members. But there's bound to be some clubs that welcome both genders.

And if you want, move up here, and you and I will start a Taoist monestary! We'll sit around and do not much of anything. Just let everything happen according to its own nature.

[Worm of Despite]

And if you want, move up here, and you and I will start a Taoist monestary! We'll sit around and do not much of anything. Just let everything happen according to its own nature.

Okay, but I get to be Secretary of the Treasury. And the cookie jar (expect lots of contention over that).

[Plissken]

Taoists have cookies? I'm in!

[Fist and Faith]

Plissken, Taoist cookies are very dry and bland. I doubt you'd like them.

*winks at Foul* heh heh