Covenant: why did he not talk?

[amanibhavam]

I mean that is one thing that bothered me throughout the series. There he is, cast into an entirely alien world, with a background nobody understands, with a disease nobody understands, and still he doesn't even try to explain things about himself or the world he belongs to. If ever he opens his mouth he talks in parables (sp?) like the story about the old woman in the leprosarium. Okay, I can understand, that either
- since he felt it's all a dream, he did not feel compelled to explain himself to the figs of his imagination
- he was so thoroughly embittered that he lost the capacity of speaking about himself
- there would be no story if he had explained everything:-)

Anyway, he could've at least tell the Lords how to make gunpowder or carts...

Whaddayathink?

[JD]

I thought he tried to explain himself to several people. Due to the fact he was "closed" to them made it impossible for them to understand the severity of Leprosy. Sometimes he did use parables and odd stories to tell people how things were in his "Real" world, but there were other times when he used plain english. Like how he described how in his world the plants, and animals had no visible health to them like he saw in The Land.



JD

[Skyweir]

interesting observations .. I think he may well have held himself introvert because of his embitterment and all the reasons you listed .. but particularly because of what you said .. he lost his capacity for speaking about himself .. for opening up to these people.

I can imagine .. that the years of his suffering leperosy and one by one the isolation forced on him by his community .. the loss of family and friends .. would have made him wary of others.

I agree .. often I felt like shaking TC .. and not only in LFB but even in the 2nd chrons .. where admittedly he was more forthcoming .. he often refused to explain himself to those around him ... particularly LA .. who .. in some cases would have mutually benefited from knowing his/each others minds ..

As for telling the Lords how to make gunpowder and carts .. well thats information of a very different kind. sure some information could have proved useful to the inhabitants of the Land .. but I doubt TC possessed that kind of knowledge (in respect to gunpowder etc) .. building a cart may not have been that much of a stretch for him but ..

the overarching concern .. is whether that would have been a benefit to the inhabitants of the Land anyway.

You know much of the discoveries of our time .. have not only had beneficiary consequences .. it wasnt till agriculture replaced hunter/gatherer techniques .. that human life expectancy and general health decreased dramatically. Sure agriculture was in answer to need/demand .. and with increased populations it became necessary to cultivate food rather than just chase it around the continents .. So the need was served but it cost a price .. in life expectancy and health.

An arguably .. acceptable compromise .. but the point is .. introducing technology and in particular advanced weaponry may serve the need of the Land in warring the evil that faced it .. but at what cost .. not only present cost .. but also that of future generations.

Far better to allow the inhabitants to 'progress' as they naturally determine .. than introduce foreign technology and devices imo.

And for that matter .. why didnt HT aid the Land .. by giving them knowledge that might have served them better .. an interesting question .. and hard to reconcile the withholding of such assistance where the need was obvious ..

*a rock and a hard place*

[Bannor]

It seems almost like Covenant would be advocating the "Prime Directive" made so popular in the Star Trek series! Not to interfere in the natural progress of a society. I borrowed some of your thoughts there, Sky.

[Brinn of the Haruchai]

Kind of a side note here, why didnt Hile Troy introduce gunpowder, surely he wouold have had the knowledge?

[Jim Govreau]

I am not convinced that Troy had that knowledge. Although all of us know about gunpowder, making it is another thing.

[Skyweir]

yes I agree Damelon .. it is one thing to speak of gunpowder and be familiar with the concept but quite another to possess the knowledge of how to make it.

and .. would it have benefited the inhabitants of the Land really? Only give them an advantage till their foes also learned its making ..

.. imagine a Land ravaged by powder blasts .. presumably they would have been limited to making things such as sticky bombs and like explosive projectiles (ie:catapult-type) rather than firearms ..

.. I dont think they worked much with iron and metals ..

Ulitmately an introduction to this kind of technology .. is like putting them on a road to an arms race .. and there is not just benefits in such a race.

[Lord Mhoram]

Think of what a modernized Land would be like. Not cool, no fresco. Plus it would destroy the purpose of fantasy.
Think about it, haha Findail I have the Staff-Vain $Findail brandishes a mchine gun$ bambam your dead, haha

[KrillLight]

Isn't the notion of using gun powder an assumption that the elements of gunpowder would work the same in the Land?
After all, Covenant's white gold ring is only metal in the 'real world', but takes on new properties in the Land.
Perhaps the vitriol of the Ur-viles is more powerful than gunpowder, how
could one measure that?
Another thought is that, given Fouls ability to take and warp even the most basic and good things, can you imagine what he might concoct from the knowledge of this world. If you ask me it would be opening a whole new can of worms...

[duchess of malfi]

Well, he does try to talk plainly in LFB. He talks plainly to Atiaran and she just doesn't get it. He tries to plainly tell Mhoram that we don't have health or earthpower in our world. People just don't either
1. understand him OR
2. don't like what he's saying and don't want to understand him OR
3. they just think our world is hell and tune him out.
He also is lacking in some basic communication skills in the first chronicles. Personally, I think that due to his disease and divorce he's clinically depressed, and that makes it VERY hard for him (possibly impossible) for him to function in a normal way socially.
As to introducing technology, that would be very difficult. Not only because most of us would lack the wisdom to see what the long term effects would be (what would LF do with a submachine gun?), but also because most of use wouldn't know how to make most of the things that would be useful. I know how a wheeled cart works, but I couldn't build one from scratch. I could descibe it to a master craftsman, and maybe he or she could build it from my description. I know about gunpowder, and have even seen some salt peter mines in caves that were used by the South in the Civil War, but I'd not know how to find it, or exactly how to mix it with the other chemicals to make gunpowder, if the metal even exists in large enough quantity to make guns. The Land doesn't seem to use/have much metal. I know that paper is made from wood pulp and rags, but I would have no clue as to how to make it...well, you get the idea. An engineer or someone like that would probably do much better in that way than I would, but TC as a writer might be even more sheltered than I when it comes to making things like that by hand. And Hile Troy wouldn't have even been able to see people making machines or carts or anything like that. He would have to descibe things from touch or from memory from books people have read to him. That would he very hard, if not impossible.

[lillianrill]

About the whole gunpowder thing...

you need sulphur and saltpeter to make gunpoweder....

sulphur might've been readily available in Fouls Creche? however saltpeter would have to of been mined. I don't think the Lords would approve of making a hole in the earth and removing its contents. As it says may times throughout the chronicles, "the land is alive." Remember when Trell struck the stone with his axe? He could not bear to know that he had done harm to the stone. Firing a gun also involves the use of metal hammers and triggers...i dunno...maybe they should've smelted Covenants ring into a arrow head to fire at Lord Foul's armies?

Just my thoughts

Cheers!

[Rockbrother]

Since there's o nly be enough metal in the ring for one arrow, imagine the pressure on that archer!

[JD]

Remember in LFB Covenant was just trying to ride out the dream, he wasn't a willing participant in things. As far as making gunpowder goes many people have no clue how to do that, sure it takes sulphur and salt peter but at what ratio?

[Guest]

and where would the metal come from to make a decent gun? alot of these people are using stone knives and woden daggers...

[aTOMiC]

When I think about this question it seems to me that TC didn't treat the Land with any true affection until PTP. By that time he was embroiled in one crisis after another. Time for a relaxed, casual discussion about automobiles, planes, microwaves and computers simple wouldn't have been possible. I do think that Hile Troy probably imparted quite a bit of mundane information about the "real" world in his discussions with Elena and Mhoram. I suppose if TC had been granted the opportunity to break bread with Mhoram after the defeat of Foul and things had a chance to settle down he probably would have spilled his guts about all kinds of things.

[Cheval]

lillianrill quoted:
"About the whole gunpowder thing...
you need sulphur and saltpeter to make gunpoweder....
sulphur might've been readily available in Fouls Creche? however saltpeter would have to of been mined. I don't think the Lords would approve of making a hole in the earth and removing its contents. As it says may times throughout the chronicles, "the land is alive." Remember when Trell struck the stone with his axe? He could not bear to know that he had done harm to the stone.

The other element needed is charcoal. The Lords would NOT allow wood to be burned/destroyed to make that product.
(Maybe in the second chronicles, but definitly not in the first.)
Besides... off the top of your head, do YOU know the items, proportions, and proccess to make gunpowder? (NO cheating and looking for the answers. You couldn't look it up in a reference book or on the internet in the Land now, could you?)