Gandalf and Covenant

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burgs
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Gandalf and Covenant

Post by burgs »

A funny question was asked by "an obvious geek" (sorry...if you're out there reading this...you're absolute right :wink: ). Could Covenant beat up Gandalf?

Here's SRDs answer:
But seriously, folks....

There's an interesting issue hidden beneath the surface of this joke. It is a crucial aspect of LOTR that Gandalf does NOT "save the world". He guides and influences events in many ways; but he does not play a Covenant-like role in the story. (Shucks, he never even gets to throw down with the king of the Ringwraiths.) Neither does Aragorn, for that matter. Clearly it is important to Tolkien's intent that Middle Earth is saved by the smallest and most mundane (or at any rate least dramatic) of his characters: the Hobbits. People who consider Donaldson a Tolkien imitator should think more deeply about the differences between Gandalf and Covenant."

My mind has a simple answer (because it is a simple mind) to the "geeky" question. It's kind of like asking who can beat who, Mike Tyson (when he was actually a menance) or one of the top guys from UFC, of which I know little. All I know is that one sport has strict rules, and although knockouts are preferable, blood is considered a bonus, boxing is supposed to be a "sweet science". Not so with UFC. It's basically a slightly more sophisticated bar brawl with a referee to stop one person from killing the other.

In other words, who knows? With gloves on, standing straight, in his heyday, Tyson was unbeatable and terrifying. But could he stand up to one of the UFC champs where kicks and cheap shots (cheaper than Tyson's) ruled? Like I said...different arenas.

Also of interest, SRD makes an interesting statement regarding his comparison to Tolkien. While there are external resemblances (I won't go through the lists), there are very few internal resemblances.

Brooks, on the other hand, was a Tolkien imitator. Allanon played the exact role that Gandalf did.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Gandalf would be toast!

Gandalf could never shatter reality with his power like TC can.... or could.

I guess it depends on what timeframe this fight would take place.

A 1st Chronicle TC would get his butt kicked.
A 2nd Chron TV, the reverse would hold true.


But I think if such a thing would come to pass that TC would react to Gandalf much in the way he reacted to Lord Mhoram: with freindship and respect.

Indeed, I could see TC offering to give his Ring to Gandalf as well.

(and then Gandalf would kick Foul's ass!)
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Post by burgs »

The cosmology of each work is so radically different that I don't think a "winner" could be chosen. Donaldson's is simple; Tolkien's is rather complex.

I don't think that anyone, save Iluvatar/Eru could shatter reality in Tolkien's world.

How would TC fair against the Creator? That might be a better question.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

burgs wrote:The cosmology of each work is so radically different that I don't think a "winner" could be chosen. Donaldson's is simple; Tolkien's is rather complex.

I don't think that anyone, save Iluvatar/Eru could shatter reality in Tolkien's world.
Well, in fights like this I like to blend the universes together.
So the laws of WM (ha ha what Laws?) would be the same in the ME universe.
burgs wrote:How would TC fair against the Creator? That might be a better question.
How can he fight himself?
;)
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Post by Digital Thought »

You know I was just thinking about something that happened to Covenant. Well, actually not him, he escaped. But to Elena actually. When
Spoiler
she broke the law of death, Kevin immediately attacks Foul. We, the readers, are left thinking well that's too easy & that's your saying Thomas. You know better than this. Still a couple of breaths of time continue on & Elena is probably feeling the apple spoil in her mind. But the reader is not let on. Then Kevin comes back! And he's pissed. He's already been defeated. And it's so soon.


I was horrified. For her, for him, for the land.

Eventually, Thomas beat Foul. He beat him.

I really like Gandalf, but he had a hard time with what amounts to being a raver in a giant. It isn't even close to the power of Foul himself. Foul's power appeared to feel that of a being who was like that of more than the triplet ravers. In a real fight, he could best them, or because of immortality it was useless to do so. But the evil one's desire was to tear apart the entire creation network, the universe, through the arch of time. Either destroy or utterly invade in order to destroy, but the end result was destruction of everything that the Creator made. So I think that going up against a guy like that & winning vs. going up against a mere raver in the form of the Balrog kind of shows who would have won.

But you know, there's always the damned refs.
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Post by burgs »

You're forgetting that the Balrog was essentially Gandalf's equal, in the sense that they were both Maiar. Balrogs were "turned" by Morgoth. You can't make that comparison.
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Post by wayfriend »

As you say, Gandalf is a Maia. The Maiar are below the Valar. And the Valar are below Iluvatar. If Iluvatar equates to the Creator, and Foul is the Creator's brother/equal, then Foul is orders of magnitude above a Maia. If TC can hold his own against someone at the Iluvatar level, then he'd shred Gandalf down to his polka-dotted elven boxers. QED.

On the other hand ... why would they be fighting ...
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Post by burgs »

They're different "worlds". Who can say that the Creator, or Foul, aren't on the same level as one of the Maiar comparatively? That's why the question just doesn't make sense. We don't know that Iluvatar and the Creator are equals.
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Post by Rincewind »

Brooks, on the other hand, was a Tolkien imitator. Allanon played the exact role that Gandalf did.
oh no! SRD just started a Author War!

this was from the gradual interview, right?
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Post by Nerdanel »

I think Covenant would win easily if he managed to tap wild magic. This wouldn't be a problem with a Second Chronicles Covenant (although accidental destruction of the world would be) but a First Chronicles Covenant would be in trouble. He would be dead very quickly unless Glamdring or Gandalf's staff awakened the white gold ring.

On the other hand, Gandalf would probably show mercy to the poor, harmless-looking Covenant...
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Post by burgs »

No - the Brooks comment was mine. Not SRDs. So, that's my author war. :-)

His quote was from the GI, yes.

But again, we're not comparing like to like with this scenario. My point in posting this, I suppose, was to point out how absurd these types of questions are. Apparently I didn't do a good job. :(
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Post by Nerdanel »

Can Thomas Covenant beat up one of those heroic mice from Redwall? Now that's a question. :P

(Answer: No. The Redwall animal would win 100% of the time, since in Redwall the fighting ability of the good guys increases to match the obstacles, so that they ALWAYS win. Covenant only has some piddly white gold.)
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

burgs wrote: But again, we're not comparing like to like with this scenario. My point in posting this, I suppose, was to point out how absurd these types of questions are. Apparently I didn't do a good job. :(

Allow me to indroduce you to the "Who would win in a fight thread" to find out why we would actually LOVE this question :lol: :

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6756
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Post by wayfriend »

burgs wrote:But again, we're not comparing like to like with this
scenario. My point in posting this, I suppose, was to point out how absurd these types of questions are. Apparently I didn't do a good job. :(
Yeah, but sometimes it's okay to getting into the spirit of the thread rather than poo-poo it. I can add "This quesion makes no sense and so the answer should be mu; but accepting the premise as a given I would say ..." if it helps.
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Post by burgs »

Can I possibly convey the regret I have for posting this?

If there is a good dagger...
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Post by wayfriend »

Now, on to the next big question: who has the better ring? Covenant could have gotten out of a lot of scrapes if he could have turned invisible... :wink:
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

And Frodo would have had a much easier and quicker travel route if he could have just blasted the Black Gate to rubble.
8O

(Was Shelob's venom a "moral venom" too?)
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Post by matrixman »

Wayfriend wrote:Now, on to the next big question: who has the better ring? Covenant could have gotten out of a lot of scrapes if he could have turned invisible... :wink:
:lol: Who knows what the white gold is capable of? Amok was an expert on invisibility, so maybe if Covenant had only asked him for some tips... :wink:

On a side note, I've finally begun reading LOTR. (Firstly, in order to settle in my own mind what all the "SRD vs. JRRT" fuss is about. Secondly, to try to enjoy LOTR for its own sake. So far, it's been a bit of a struggle for me to adapt to Tolkien's style as it's radically different from Donaldson's. Already, that tells me just how superficial the resemblance is between LOTR and TCTC. In fact, they hardly resemble each other at all.)
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Matrixman wrote: On a side note, I've finally begun reading LOTR. (Firstly, in order to settle in my own mind what all the "SRD vs. JRRT" fuss is about. Secondly, to try to enjoy LOTR for its own sake. So far, it's been a bit of a struggle for me to adapt to Tolkien's style as it's radically different from Donaldson's. Already, that tells me just how superficial the resemblance is between LOTR and TCTC.)
If I were to do a bullet point comparison between the two I bet I could come up with enough stuff to make SRD look like he was stealing ideas from JRRT.

But the funny thing is, JRRT included so many classic literary ideas that such a case could be made for anyone.

And, in turn, JRRT mined the classics himself.

Anyone who sees a resemblance between SRD and JRRT just doesn't know enough about one of them, imho.
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Post by Revenant »

Now, in a catfight, who would win, Galadriel or Elena? 8O :biggrin:
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