Elohim vs Vain : What Gives ?

[kaseryn]

Im due a reread soon and will no doubt be rambling all over the boards with thots and queries then.. never had other TC fans to bounce idea's off all the other times i'd read them.. but for now.. something which bugged me :

Why did the Elohim have it in for Vain so badly that they tried to imprison and ultimately harmed him ?

We know they knew his purpose, and on a purely personal level we can appreciate Findails lack of excitement at the prospect of becoming 'purpose' as opposed to dead, as put so memorably by Vain himself. But the Elohim themselves tried to obstruct him. Did they not want order restored to the Land ? Or did they simply not comprehend the wider picture i.e. Covenants destiny? Perhaps they thought he meant to use a new staff to break the Arch ? But surely a staff makes that less rather than more likely. There were prolly more clues abt this than i now remember.. however, let debate commence!!

[Skyweir]

I am not entirely sure what Findail's problem was ..

besides ofcourse .. not wanting to surrender his long enjoyed elohim freedom to supply the staff its earth power. It seems that Vain immediately recognised Findail's purpose .. and Findail kept Vain well at bay ..

The other elohim were not convinced that Vain could be trusted .. like they perceived him as an evil omen to them .. or something .. Like they perceived some sense of foreboding surrounding Vain ..

The elohim are a strange lot .. they see themselves as a superior and elite race of folk .. which in many ways they have good grounds for thinking such .. but I dont think subjecting themselves or being in servitude (serving the earth as in findails role in the staff) .. is something would come to their minds easily.

I will ponder on this debate a little longer and return when I have something else to add.

good topic by the way kasreyn .. and welcome to the Watch ..

[kaseryn]

Thanks for the input Skyweir, i'll wait for ur more considered reflections, and thanks again

[Dromond]

I think yhe Elohim despised Vain so much because they considered him an affront to their sense of superiority. The fact that Ur-viles created Vain and said "Now if we can just get us one o' them thar Elohim" was an offence. Had the Elohim appointed Findail and told him to get to the Land and tell the Ur-viles to make Vain, that would have been in line with their "wurd". Wierd word, "wurd"

[Vain]

I have it on good authority that the 3rd Series uncovers this mystery.

[kaseryn]

Cant you just tell us Vain ? You were there after all. Nekrimah Vain!! Out with it

[kaseryn]

I like that idea Dromond, fits with some of what i remember.. as Skyweir alludes though.. and evidenced by their their determination to negate his purpose.. it does seem they felt incredibly threatened by him in some way. Lets hope the 3rd series does indeed shed some light on this

[Vain]

The Elohim are indeed a race that see beyond the here and the now. If we accept that they tried to stop Vain in the interests of the greater good, then we also need to believe that TC's mission - although it appeared to be a success - is akin to Kevin Landwaster but only much worse.

[kaseryn]

Or that it had the potential for disaster.. no one was sure if he was gonna be another Kevin until the end but then most of the others didnt realise Vains purpose and Findails role in that as the Elohim did. Which brings me back to the question, if they knew Vain was going to be a Staff of Law, with a little help.. why hinder that ? If anything you'd imagine that decreases Covenants capacity for destruction. Cloudy motives them Elohim...

[Eddy]

I've always thought that it was because Vain was a created creature; entirely unnatural and made by a race who may have had their own, dark, purpose.
Great issue!

[pitchwife]

I remember that at the site of the one tree, a flake of earthpower form the tree's eruption hit Vain and part of his arm became into wood.

I think this is a hint that there was more than one way for Vain to be transformed into the Staff of Law, and maybe the Elohim were aware of that, so that explains why they were not so enthusiastic about fulfiling Findail's part. They were hoping for a different solution.

-pitch

[Creator]

But Linden reported that his arm was DEAD. (Despite the later use of it to catch Findail under Mount Thunder) The whole point was that it was a "living" staff.

I don't think just any ol' earthpower would do. Findail provided the power but also "life" that Vain lacked.

[Grimm]

I've always assumed that with Vain and Wild Magic being key parts in one solution to the Sunbane, and Covenant wielding the Wild Magic in madness, the Elohim wanted Vain out of the picture so Covenant wouldn't use the White Gold and possibly break the Arch Of Time, assuming that without Vain they would be unable to do anything.

(Gee, this seemed like a simple subject untill I really thought about it. My brain hurts.)

Grimm

[Skyweir]

mmm .. that made me think of something else .. I dont know how correct it is .. but I remember the Elohim in their legend or whatever .. had a tale about stars being trapped within the AoT when the Creator placed it over the 'earth' to imprison Foul .. and that the offspring of the imprisoned stars were the Elohim ..

I may have this entirely wrong .. so if I dont .. then it is interesting that they have no desire to rent the AoT in two .. I mean maybe they are just really easy going 'prisoners' unlike Foul .. and have no desire to be liberated from the 'earth' that they now call home. I know they see themselves as stewards of the 'earth' .. but even as we have reached some concensus as to the Elohim's attitude .. they really did get it so badly wrong for the self-proclaimed superior beings they claim to be.

Never mind .. that just interested me .. ho hum ..

[The Creator]

That's true about the Elohim, but I remember that TC thought that in the Cave of the One Tree that Foul wanted him to break the AoT. Later Findail says that Foul would also perish if he did not hold the white gold in his hand.

So then the AoT breaks, everyone inside dies?

Suddenly "immortals" seem pretty fragile...

I should probably mention this in some OTHER forum, eh?

[Lord Mhoram]

Welcome Creator!
I dont quite remember Findail saying Foul dies...but Im sure youre right!

[Skyweir]

Welcome Creator .. be welcome and true!!

wow I never considered immortal beings as being fragile .. but as you say they may be vulnerable to destruction if they operate outside of the established parameters.

can you cite that passage where Findail tells TC that if he isnt holding the white gold he will also die?? .. that is interesting but I dont remember it.

Are the Elohim immortals also?? does anyone recall??

[The Creator]

Skyweir,

In WGW, Chapter 2, Leper's Ground (page 28 in my paperback edition) Findail is answering LA's and TC's questions in his cabin as he recovers from his failure at the One Tree.

Findail is speaking "This Despiser is not mad. Should he rouse the Worm himself, without the wild magic in his hand, would he not also be consumed in the destruction of the world?"

Doesn't this contradict the many implications that if TC breaks the AoT that Foul is freed to attack the Creator?

[Skyweir]

yes I believe you are right Creator .. it would seem to!

[kaseryn]

Doesnt it mean rather that the roused worm would wreak destruction within the confines of the Arch. ie the Land, and that the Despiser would share the fate without the Wild Magic as either a defense or escape route thru the Arch ?