Covenant time travelling

[musicboxforever]

Hey has anyone thought that maybe the Thomas Covenant at the end has slipped through a ceasure in time and is not in fact the dead Covenant but a much younger version who has never met Linden. After all Anele slipped through a crack in time, which explains his presence when he ought to be dead.

[dlbpharmd]

Welcome!

In fact that theory has been brought up from time to time, I'll try to find those threads and bump them for you.

[kevinswatch]

a much younger version who has never met Linden

Haha. Now that would be funny.-jay

[musicboxforever]

Hey thanks, I've read a couple of time travelling comments, but I was thinking it might be an interesting story line if he hasn't met her yet. She's in love with him, but he's not the same him as the covenant she fell for. It would be quite traumatic and confusing for her and that's the kind of thing these poor characters go through, the unhealable wounds and heart wrentching pain etc.

[Prom_STar]

That would be interesting and would definitley create some tension and pain, but it also creates problems. In short, the "real" covenant is still around somewhere. Sure he "died" but in the end of WGW he came back (very odd episode, btw). So if this end of Runes Covenant isn't the "real" one, that means the two could meet and that would raise problems. Of course, if SRD wanted to make it happen, I fully believe he could.

[wayfriend]

I wouldn't hold to this theory for literary reasons. Donaldson wants Covenant's story/journey/transformation to continue and conclude. He admits to hating prequels; for him, the value is going further, not going back.

[Buckarama]

Yeah I don't think the time travel thing would work. He would be a master indeed to make me believe that.

I think he's Raver-fied.

[Prom_STar]

Think about it. In the First Chronicles, Foul could control all the Dead (even our old buddy Kevin was easily mastered). Couldn't he do the same with Covenant?

Of course, in the Second Chronicles, the Dead of Andelain remain beyond Foul's grasp and the only thing different that time around is Foul doesn't have the Illearth Stone. So maybe the Stone is the key to controlling the dead.

And now that the Demondim are back with the power of the Illearth Stone....


Uh-Oh

[Buckarama]

Agreed. The body or remains of TC remains a question for me.

[wayfriend]

I've posted before about the possibility that Foul controls dead TC. Or at least some part of him.

If TC is Dead, then it's almost a given that Foul can control him. This was even hinted at, at the end of WGW:

"I'm not physically alive. And I can be dismissed. I'm like the Dead. They can be invoked - and they can be sent away. Anybody who knows how can make me leave." He appeared to believe he was in that danger. "Even Foul could've done it, if he hadn't tried to use wild magic against me."

If Foul can "invoke" Covenant ... we've seen he was completely able to master dead Kevin - the Despiser mastered me as easily as if I were a child! - and dead Elena. The Ravers were able to raise the dead and coerce them into an army, to send dead Hoerkin on a mission.

I think TC is in quite a bit of trouble!

Some of my earlier posts along these lines.

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4854&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=166

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4810&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=142

[Prom_STar]

Mahdoubt = piece of Covenant.

Fascinating...

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't SRD said the Final Chronicles will bring everything (berek through WGW) to a close, to a conclusion?
I know I've been inclined to think of each episode (pre-Chornicles, FC, SC, TC) as separate with a few links between them. That is, the issues of the FC were solved in TPTP, etc. But I think SRD's plan (at least since he decided to continue things after the FC) has been to have those individual conflict-resolution elements in each Chronicle and to have one overarching element (or story, if you will) that will unite all that is Thomas Covenant together into one unit.

I bring this up because upon reading that SRD statement, my first thought was time traveling (via Caesures) into the past. I believe he mentioned Berek and the Old Lods. I picture Linden and friends riding a caesure back and actually seeing Kevin and Loric and such.

I don't expect that's what will happen--Donaldson can do much better, frankly--but that quote of his still makes me think.

[finn]

SRD had said that he wants to explore LF and a way to that end might be via TC.

However there is an out to the mastering of the dead, in that the Law of Life has also been broken which could allow TC to be somehow reincarnated or given corporeal form. There is a theory that the land creates a corporeal form for its visitors "spirits"; who's to say that that is limited to one, especially if the physical being is no longer alive in the "real world". Hile Troy/CC could support this.

[Prom_STar]

True. If Hollian could be ressurected, surely Covenant could as well.

[Buckarama]

what if TC is alive somehow, with the ceasures(SP) couldn't he go back and *BE* Bereck? This would alllow all the lore about half hand and whitegold to be passed down through the generaltions. Linden could be his queen and stuff. I know I'm reaching, but hey! (Like McDonalds) It could happen!

[Prebe]

Thomas Covenant at the end has slipped through a ceasure in time and is not in fact the dead Covenant but a much younger version who has never met Linden.

Perish the thought! Then we would have to go through all that whining again![/quote]

[Xar]

I've posted before about the possibility that Foul controls dead TC. Or at least some part of him.

If TC is Dead, then it's almost a given that Foul can control him. This was even hinted at, at the end of WGW:

"I'm not physically alive. And I can be dismissed. I'm like the Dead. They can be invoked - and they can be sent away. Anybody who knows how can make me leave." He appeared to believe he was in that danger. "Even Foul could've done it, if he hadn't tried to use wild magic against me."

If Foul can "invoke" Covenant ... we've seen he was completely able to master dead Kevin - the Despiser mastered me as easily as if I were a child! - and dead Elena. The Ravers were able to raise the dead and coerce them into an army, to send dead Hoerkin on a mission.

I think TC is in quite a bit of trouble!

As stated before, and as shown in the First Chronicles by the emerald aura around the controlled Dead, Foul needed the Illearth Stone to compel dead Kevin and dead Elena. And both of them were simple human Dead, despite Kevin's Lore and the High Lordship of both. Covenant was no longer truly human since the Banefire caamora: remember, Glimmermere recognized him as something real enough to be reflected in its waters, whereas Linden, and even TC himself in TIW, were not recognized by the lake. The waters of Glimmermere are so Earthpowerful that they only reflect that which is of high enough stature and power as to match them: thus, they didn't reflect living Covenant in TIW, nor Elena, nor the Unfettered One, nor Mhoram. And thus, in the SC, they didn't reflect Linden. But after the Banefire caamora, Covenant was: he made a point of it when he brought Linden there, remember? "Glimmermere recognizes me!".

Covenant is not physically alive, but neither is he a simple human Dead: due to the Banefire caamora, he is wild magic as well, and given that wild magic cannot "die", and cannot be compelled by lesser beings, it is very much possible that - also thanks to the breaking of the Law of Life and the Law of Death - although Covenant can be invoked or dismissed, he cannot be compelled. It is also very likely that he can manifest himself more freely than the Dead: in fact, I prefer to think of him as an ascended, disembodied spirit rather than one of the Dead now.

[wayfriend]

I think it's a leap to say that the Illearth Stone is required. I think it comes in handy, but I don't think that Foul is incapacitated without it. Shades were raised in Andelain without the Stone. I would say that the Stone offers Foul a ready means of coercion, but I would not say that there are not other means.

Consider: are the Demondim the only ones capable of harnessing a ceasure and accessin the Illearth Stone? If Elohim and Esmer can travel through time without ceasures, what is Foul capable of?

I do believe that Covenant is more than human now. But that may or may not make him less accessible to Foul. It may or may not make him more accessible as well.

However, I theorize that if the Arch is weakening, dead Covenant must be as well, due to his affinity with the Arch. If the Arch is fragmented if not yet broken, what effect does this have on Covenant? Might he be weakened? Might he be, in some sense, fragmented?

There are enough scenes in Runes which include the TC to be fairly sure that it's not the same TC each time.

[wayfriend]

That being said ... excuse the double post ....

I may have to retract my statements about the possibility of time travel. Or at least modify them. I ran across this.

He said that the 1st Chronicles were the "muscle" books where Lord Foul is akin to Hitler forging armies and A-bombs to ruin his enemies and break his prison. In the 2nd Chronicles Foul's method is an attack on the natural order of things. But in the 3rd Chronicles Foul's final means of escape will consist of a massive attack on and corruption OF TIME ITSELF!!!!!!!!

The audience was rendered speechless for 2 minutes straight after he said this--this answered any and all questions about the present, future and the past. "We will go back before the Lords, back before the Old Lords, the whole history of the Land will become relevant to the present." he said.

[Jerico]

In a way we have already gone back before the old lords. With Anele's reading of the Rock and telling of the one forest coming into being.
I know that none of the people of this tale went back in time, but The Earth remembers and Anele told the story.

[Prom_STar]

Theory:

SRD has said he waited so long before writing the Third Chronicles because he knew they would be the most difficult thing he had ever attempted--he wasn't sure he was ready to write them.

And Time travel sure does make things difficult.