The Ending... Was that really...

[Steve Hurtloam]

I hate that I take a break from this site, and think of a great idea for a thread.. "find me" vs. "lack of active finding" of dead Covenant... and there's already an 11 page thread all about it!

HAHA!

[Old Darth]

If Linden's son is a fully functioning individual - which is worse? Giving back someone you loved in a broken state or giving back someone you loved who, was broken, in a fixed state?

[I'm Murrin]

If Linden's son is a fully functioning individual - which is worse? Giving back someone you loved in a broken state or giving back someone you loved who, was broken, in a fixed state?

...And quite possibly a premature, unnaturally fixed state. To me this suggestion echoes of Davies Hyland, whose unnatural maturation caused a lot of serious psychological turmoil.

[Old Darth]

I am very interested to see how Linden responds to seeing the two loves of her life returned to her at the same time. Both will most likely be fully healed and present Linden with the dilemma of providing dual reponses as a mother and a wife at the same time.

Somebody or perhaps everyone is going to come out of this hurt.

[ur-bane]

If Linden's son is a fully functioning individual - which is worse? Giving back someone you loved in a broken state or giving back someone you loved who, was broken, in a fixed state?

But is he really fixed? This reminds me of the First's test with the Elohim. The first passed because she knew that the "Pitchwife" she saw before her was not the real Pitchwife.

......I wonder what Jeremiah's eyes will look like......

[Old Darth]

Perhaps but if Foul is behind Jeremiah's release you can take it as a given that Foul would not have done so lightly. He would make sure that Jeremiah's healing is done in such a manner that Linden could not perceive any falseness.

[ur-bane]

That may be true as well. But I seem to remember Foul overlooking things here and there.

It's very difficult to say exactly what role Jeremiah will play in the scheme of things. Is he another Pietten? Apparently fixed and whole, yet sent to achieve an end of Foul's design?

Or perhaps Jeremiah was not "fixed" by Foul at all.
Maybe he was fixed by Covenant, and/or hurtloam.
Although it is hidden, there is Earthpower still.

[avial]

Esmer asked Linden which path she would choose,to bear the staff of law and the white gold,or give one up.He said her decision would choose his path also.As I have posted befor I do not believe that Esmer in his wildest dreams would think that Linden would give him the ring.Who knows where Esmer's chain of aid and betrail will end.He indicated that the bearing of the White Gold and The Staff would tear Linden apart-therefor as an act of aid did he resurect the only person that Linden would give the ring to?Who knows what Esmer is capable of?

Blimey - that could be it - Esmer does say that time has no constraints over him too...

[Old Darth]

It's very difficult to say exactly what role Jeremiah will play in the scheme of things.

Given Jeremiah's idiot savant ability to constuct complex structures I feel he will be the navigator to traversing the Arch of Time. He will lead Linden and Covenant to some point in time and/or space where the Despiser can be truly defeated without destroying the Arch. This could be back at the starting point.

[wayfriend]

Maybe just to bump an old, good thread.

Does anyone know if it is said in the text whether or not Covenant and Jeremiah are riding Ranyhyn?

Because, I was thinking, if they are Ranyhyn, then it cannot really be Covenant.

Some receently reminded me in another thread [bows to The Somberlain] that Covenant's first bargain, his vow to the Ranyhyn, may remain in tact.

[I'm Murrin]

AFAICR, they were sharing mounts with the Haruchai, and the Ranyhyn have only returned to the Land recently - apart from Stave, no Haruchai has had opportunity to offer himself since tPtP.

Covenant released the Ranyhyn from their bargain in tPtP - but they might still fear him, and he would definately still refuse to ride.

[dlbpharmd]

Agree with Murrin on both points.

[Nerdanel]

They are riding the normal horses. They have apparently been walking and gotten picked up by Haruchai scouts.

I so think the whole thing is a setup of some sort. I suspect Lord Foul is probably at least in partial possession of Jeremiah and the Demondim retreated from Revelstone on purpose to let TC and Jeremiah have a way in and then gave a fake chase to keep up appearances.

EDIT - Not just one but two post before me... Well, I'll let this one stand anyway.

[wayfriend]

Since I didn't want to put Runes spoilers in the GI thread, I thought that this was the best place to post this tid.

Peter B.: Hi Stephen.

Okay, at the risk of inadvertently asking for a spoiler, or worse, admitting that I may have missed something quite obvious, what is the significance of the name of the last chapter of Runes entitled Find Me? There seems to be no reference to anyone finding or questing after anything in that chapter, and I don't remember anyone using those words earlier in the book.

One other thing, it seems that the Science Fiction Channel is going to start running the new Doctor Who episodes starting around March.

-Peter
__________________________________

More than once in "The Runes of the Earth," Covenant tells Linden (in dreams; through Anele) to "find" him. Sometimes it's "Linden, find me." Sometimes it's just "*Find* me."

(03/18/2006)

It seems to me that SRD deftly sidesteps explaining the significance of the chapter title. However, he does want it understood that there were, in fact, references in the text to those two words 'Find me'.

I think the inescapable conclusion is that Donaldson, by using a chapter title to reinforce the point, wants us to recall that Covenant had said 'find me' as he rides up to Revelstone.

Which to me means: he wants to point out the inconsistency. The inconsistency of Covenant looking to be found but who subsequently rides up to the front door somehow. Linden found no one; no one found Covenant.

Something is going on ... of course, I am predisposed to believe that that is not Covenant on the horse, so this seems to be a confirmation of that point. But I could see how this clue confirms any number of theories.

[Xar]

Unless of course the "Find me" sentence refers to the "fragmented Covenant" theory, in a way; if so, then the Covenant who is riding with Jeremiah might be an "avatar" of the real Covenant, but not complete. Maybe he will lack some essential characteristic of himself, which is the part that has been communicating with Linden all along. Whether this is the Mahdoubt or an unseen character, it could simply be that Covenant is somehow fragmented. Perhaps a side effect of the caesures, perhaps something else (could even be the continuous use of bursts of wild magic on Joan's part, given that Covenant has become wild magic and there is apparently some side effect if wild magic is used now - see the thread about chapter 6 in Final Revenant).

[Nerdanel]

At least that quote almost says outright that it's not two independent fragments talking through dreams and through Anele. I've never been a fan of the fragmented Covenant theory anyway. If I had to guess, I would say the "Covenant" riding towards Revelstone is in fact Roger, transformed from a near-duplicate into a total duplicate by Lord Foul. The resemblance between father and son is so big that it will have to get into the story somehow at some point.

As far as Covenant being too nice to possess anyone, I think he also has let his morals slip lately.

Spoiler

He has red eyes in Chapter Six of Fatal Revenant - NOT a good sign. Magic in the Land is color-coded and red has been invariably evil. I think Covenant has been dabbling in some seriously bad stuff.

I think ends are justifying the means for him too. He's certainly changed a lot during the books. In TPTP he chose a little girl's life over the Land but in WGW he chose the Land over Seadreamer's soul.

[Warmark]

see the thread about chapter 6 in Final Revenant.

At least this way we only have to wait for one book and not two...

[Xar]

The resemblance between father and son is so big that it will have to get into the story somehow at some point.

Ah, but it could simply come into play when and if Covenant and Roger actually meet... the resemblance between the two which would only highlight their fundamental differences. Besides, Foul has never shown powers capable of changing a person so that he or she looks exactly like another one in all circumstances, including health-sense perception. The only instances in which he altered living beings was when he possessed the Illearth Stone, and even then the altered creatures felt unnatural according to the health-sense.

As far as Covenant being too nice to possess anyone, I think he also has let his morals slip lately.

Spoiler

He has red eyes in Chapter Six of Fatal Revenant - NOT a good sign. Magic in the Land is color-coded and red has been invariably evil. I think Covenant has been dabbling in some seriously bad stuff.

Although I agree that red isn't a good omen, remember that thus far we only have one reference for red eyes = evil, and that's Gibbon-Raver in the SC. I would rather say that the true "colour of evil" in the Chronicles is emerald green, the colour of the Illearth Stone.

I think ends are justifying the means for him too. He's certainly changed a lot during the books. In TPTP he chose a little girl's life over the Land but in WGW he chose the Land over Seadreamer's soul.

Yes, but in WGW he was emotionally drained, with the additional burden of failure he was carrying: he was the only hope of the Land and thought he had failed it, and he was also the only hope of Linden and had failed her as well. Plus, he had just realized that all his plan had been anticipated and developed by Lord Foul, so in the end the Covenant of WGW was so utterly drained, even compared to the Covenant in TPTP, that he simply had no strength of will left to acknowledge Honninscrave's request. In TPTP, even though he was weak and exhausted, he was nowhere near that defeated.

[Nerdanel]

Foul can't make a copy of a person, but I think Roger is so close to his father already that I think Foul could manage it.

1. Stretch Roger a little taller and thinner. (Hard in real life, could be much simpler with magic.)

2. Get some lines of pain to Roger's cheeks and gray his hair a little. (Should be handled adequately by the previous point.)

It seems that the people of the Land, even if they have heatlh-sense, cannot see into people from the "real world". I concede the point about Linden, though. Although, I'm not sure how good her health-sense is separating personalities and not just emotions and physical states. Roger shouldn't have leprosy, though.

Although I agree that red isn't a good omen, remember that thus far we only have one reference for red eyes = evil, and that's Gibbon-Raver in the SC. I would rather say that the true "colour of evil" in the Chronicles is emerald green, the colour of the Illearth Stone.

Cavewights have red eyes too.

But it's not just the matter of red eyes. It's also the matter of green eyes, and every other sort of weird eyes. People's eyes reflect their style of magic a lot in the Chronicles. (Makes me wonder about the Mahdoubt.)

And I would think red is indeed the most true color of evil in the Chronicles. Lord Foul does a lot with green in the First Chronicles, but the Illearth Stone is just a very powerful bane, not the be-all-end-all of evil. Red is more pervasive, being found in such places as the Sunbane's primary (ray) color and in the secret door at Ridjeck Thome, making it look like red is the color of Lord Foul's native magic. There is also black magic, which is associated with the Demondim and their spawn (and na-Mhoram's Grim, which I think could be used as a piece of evidence for Ravers being Demondim, or at least that they share some lore).

(I wonder if we could use a thread on magical colors.)

[Warmark]

I'm sure there was a thread discussing the difference between 'good' and 'evil' green and other colours but i cant seem to find it.