What REALLY happened at the end of the Second Chronicles?

[danlo]

(oh other stuff )

[Furls Fire]

huggles

[DarkReflection]

Alright, I agree Sunder was an integral and very important part of The Second Chronicles but he was never as cool or warm as Mhoram. I just can't see Sunder burying the krill up to the hilt into a large evil giant. He just dosent have that fire. IMO. However, Hamako....that guy rocked and rocked hard. I wanted to jump up and cry and yell and just generally freak out when he took out the arghule just by sheer will.

Yeah Hamako.....

[Fist and Faith]

Yup! A good moment, for sure!!!

As for the guy whose father was regarded by all to be a lunatic; the guy who had to kill probably thousands of people, including his own mother, iirc?, to help others... Not as warm as Mhoram you say?

[[Syl]]

Hey, if it's a sin not to like Sunder, then I'm probably going to one of the seven hells. I mean, I respect the guy, but... Dunno, it's hard to describe. TC is a hard enough guy to like, but next to Sunder he appears downright jovial.

[KaosArcana]

DarkReflection:

Alright, I agree Sunder was an integral and very important part of The Second Chronicles but he was never as cool or warm as Mhoram. I just can't see Sunder burying the krill up to the hilt into a large evil giant. He just dosent have that fire. IMO. However, Hamako....that guy rocked and rocked hard. I wanted to jump up and cry and yell and just generally freak out when he took out the arghule just by sheer will.

Yeah Hamako.....

I could see Sunder fighting a Giant-Raver with everything that he had
in him.

Remember, Sunder is the man who was able to resist the coercion of
an Illearth-empowered Raver. Not through Lore, but sheer human
intrangience. Sunder is the man who had to kill his own wife and son to preserve his community ... but kept his sanity and humanity intact.

Sunder is the guy who actively opposed the machinations of the
Clave when he learned the truth and accepted an impossible
burden from Thomas Covenant.

And remember this scene:

"Now it ends," fluted Caer-Caveral. The singing which conveyed his
words was at once exquisitely beautiful and unbearable. "Do not fear
for me. Though it is severe, this must be done. I am weary, eager
of release and called to rest. Your love supplies the power and none
other may take the burden from you, Son of Nassic"-- the music
contained no command now, but only sorrow-- "you must strike now."

Covenant flinched as if he expected Sunder to obey. The Graveler was
desperate enough for anything. But Linden watched him with all her
senses and saw his inchoate violence founder in dismay. He lowered
the krill. His eyes were wide with supplication. Behind the mad
obsession which had ruled him since Hollian's death still lived a man who
loathed killing-- who had shed too much blood and never forgiven
himself for it. After days of endurance, he was dying.

The Forestal struck the turf with his staff and the Hills rang. "Strike!"

His demand was so potent that Linden raised her hands
involuntarily, though it was not directed at her. Yet some part of Sunder
remained unbroken, clear. The corners of his jaw knotted with the old
obduracy which had once enabled him to defy Gibbon. Deliberately, he
unbent his elbow, let the krill dangle from his weak hand. His head
slumped forward until his chest rest on his chest. He no longer made any
effort to breathe.

The guy resisted the strength of a Raver AND a Forestal. And what
really makes him heroic in my eyes is that with all that had happened
to him, all that he had done, all he had been taught, he still valued
human life.

So, yeah. I have no problem seeing Sunder as being as worthy as
High Lord Mhoram.

Hamoko ... the Waynhim taught him the truth of the Land's history,
but he still did not did nothing to oppose the Clave. I honestly can't
see Sunder doing that ... if he had known the truth that the Clave was
false, I can't see him not actively fighting against it, even if Covenant
had not appeared in the Land.

I never really believed the arghule were any kind of threat to the Land.
Even if they had made it to the Land one Desert Sun would have evaporated the lot of them.

It just seemed to me that Hamako was committing suicide rather than
giving his life heroically.

I think SRD did that deliberately because he wanted to destroy any
possibility of hope that Covenant might have had about the Land's
future.

(I remember thinking after I read the first or second book that
Covenant should have told Sunder and Hollian about the Waynhim
and Hamako. If they had joined forces, maybe they could have
given some serious resistance to the Clave and maybe have staved
off the disaster that befell the Land after Covenant left.)

[dlbpharmd]

This is a great post! I have 3 questions to pose the panel of experts:

1) How did the white ring make it to LA's hand at the end of WGW? When she came to herself, was the ring in her hand? Or, did she physically remove it from TC's dead finger (ostensibly, w/o Berenford noticing.) To me, this is an important point b/c if the ring "magically" appeared in her hand, this is the most concrete evidence in both chronicles of the true existence of the Land (Fist's logical arguments notwithstanding.) However, if she took the ring for herself, then we're back to where we started....wondering.

2) The Unhomed were slaughtered in the 1st Chronicles and the Waynhim were slaughtered in the 2nd....who's next? (Please God! Not the Haruchai!!)

3) I understand the breaking of the Law of Death....Elena summoned dead Kevin from the grave. How did the slaying to Caer-Caveral break the Law of Life? That has always escaped me

Thanks in advance for your insightful answers!

[Furls Fire]

Covenant's specter told her to pick up the ring after Foul diminished himself against him and dropped it. She picked it up and embraced Vain and Findail, thus with wild magic they merged and became the new Staff of Law. Then Linden, with Staff and Ring healed the Land. She was then transported back to "reality"...the Staff dropped to the floor of Kiril Threndor, where Pitchwife and the First picked it up. The Ring however stayed with her. My guess is the reason she retained the ring is because it was of her and Covenant's world and not of the Land. That's my take on it anyway. It wasn't "magically"placed in her hand tho. She picked it up off the floor of Kiril Threndor after Foul dropped it.

The Law of Life was broken because someone was brought back to life from the death. Caer-Cavaral, being slain by the krill is what unleashed the power to do this. He knew it would. Which is why he told Covenant not to intervene. Sunder had to slay him with the krill because that is the power that was needed to accomplish bringing Hollian back from the Dead.

[birdandbear]

hmmm...

1. I always had the impression it was in her hand (or on her finger) when she came to, thus ultimately confirming the reality of the Land.

2. God, I don't want to know! After the Unhomed and the Waynhim, and to a lesser (but still horrible) extent - the Ranyhyn, the Ramen, and the Haruchai, I don't think I could stand any more genocide!

3. I've always wondered about this myself. Maybe the Law of Life was broken because Caer Caveral willingly and passively alllowed himself to be killed. Maybe martrydom is seen as un-natural - the most basic natural instinct of every creature being that of self-preservation? Or maybe something else entirely.

But if that were the case, I can't come up with an argument for why Sunder had to be the one to kill him.

[dlbpharmd]

Thanks Furls Fire - you made the point about LA having the ring that I'm trying to make. TC said at one point that when he leaves the Land, his physical appearance was always made to match the appearance when he entered. This happened with LA as well (the blow to the back of her head.) In my mind, this proves the existence of the Land. If the Land was a dream (as Fist argues, see above,) then LA would've had to physically remove the ring from TC.

Or am I just rambling?

[Fist and Faith]

Hey, are you a pharmacist?

[Skyweir]

brilliant Furls and dlbpharmd .. exactly!!!

LA did have possession of the ring last in the Land .. and her return to our world wearing the ring .. as OPPOSED to TC .. is irrefutable proof that this exchange occurred in the Land .. thus asserts the existence .. and their presence in this existence of an alter-reality .. THE LAND!

YEAH .. MORE FOLK WHO KNOW THE LAND IS REAL!!!

as for Sunder .. I dont really have any particular feeling for the guy either .. it looks like I too am destined for 7 hells too

I do not question his bravery or his determination .. but he just imo .. isnt on par with Mhoram ..

Mhoram was the man!! In life and beyond mortality .. he remained the man!!

Sunder just isnt LOL imo ofcourse

[Furls Fire]

welcome back sky!! I've always said that Linden coming back with the Ring made it less likely that the Land was just Covenant's dream. Her presence there in the first place makes it hard... *smirks at Fist*. During the first Chrons I was inclinded to think, "yeah this is probably all his dream" even tho there WAS the begger. But, then at the end of TPTP when the begger/creator healed him of the antivenom reaction, I thought..."okay, maybe it wasn't a dream after all". Linden pretty much confirmed for me that it wasn't a dream at all in the second Chrons.

But, we DO have Mr Donaldson. So, anything is possible. This could all be an elaborate dream of Covenant's from a bed in the leprosarium. Linden and all. Who knows...LOL!!

I'm finding all this timing stuff amazing...as many times as I've read these. I have never thought about the ROD coinciding with the onset of TC's leporsy and so forth...I would love to talk to SRD about some of this stuff. Would be awesome!!

[Fist and Faith]

Linden waking up in the "real" world with the ring in her hand, when it was on Covenant's finger as they were summoned to the Land, seems like DARNED good evidence of the Land's reality to me. The very last line in the very last book, and I forgot it!! (And I wish anyone had pointed it out to me before I went through all my arguments in the last several weeks! )

So now it seems that a guy from one reality truly is the keystone of another reality. I can't explain it, but I guess it's true. Go figure.

[Furls Fire]

LOL Fist!! I did mention that in the chat room that night when we were dicussing whether the Land was Covenant's dream or not. Of course there were a few of us in there that night, so you could have missed me saying it.

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, maybe it was the crowd. *sigh*

Oh well, now I have one less thing to argue about. How many does that leave me with? About a million?

[Furls Fire]

LOL!! That sounds about right...

Now...about that Kevin dude....

[Skyweir]

WHOOOO HOOOOOO ... a concession of defeat at last!!! LOL I love it!!!

THE LAND IS REAL .. ITS ALWAYS BEEN REAL ..

lol .. and now f&f knows it too!!

excellent *rubs hands together in Montgomery Burns fashion* more REALITY converts!!

[Fist and Faith]

...


*trying to think of a witty reply*

[Skyweir]

unnecessary