The 'Other' - what LSD and Marijuana has shown

[Loredoctor]

Sagan wrote of a discussion, though one wonders if it was not himself who was using it, he had with a friend who used LSD and smoked pot. This person reported an encounter - frequent encounter, I might add - during an LSD trip or being 'high' of encountering a sensatin of 'The Other'. He described it is some distant figure cooly observing the individual. During a trip, he asked the Other who he was, and the Other replied 'Who is it that asks the question?' - a very Zen-like observation. Sagan reasoned that the Other is the product of the rational left-hemisphere of the brain, though I am not sure if this theory is accurate (it certainly seems so, however). I can imagine the imaginative, intuitive right-hemisphere flourishing under the effects of the drug chemicals, but the rational side being distanced somehow - perhaps through the very nature of it's processes. If this is correct, then LSD and pot reveals to us a dichotomous mind (not that I condone the use of drugs - but half of science is observation).

Has anyone experienced The Other?

[[Syl]]

No, but I think I'm a bit too egocentric (not trying to disparage myself) for that.

But I am reminded of the quote by Meister Eckhardt: "The eye with which I see God is the same eye as with which God sees me."

[Loredoctor]

No, but I think I'm a bit too egocentric (not trying to disparage myself) for that.

AHhh, I see what you mean. It would challenge your egocentricism. Interesting!

[danlo]

I've seen Mescalito in a cornfield once... What's LCD (the REAL Liquid Crystal Display?), btw?

[Loredoctor]

I've seen Mescalito in a cornfield once... What's LCD (the REAL Liquid Crystal Display?), btw?

LSD I meant.

[Zarathustra]

Has anyone experienced The Other?

Most certainly yes. A couple times. Never on LSD, on psylocibin.

[lucimay]

i saw Captain America once on psylocibin.

[Fist and Faith]

i saw Captain America once on psylocibin.

The Other's answer seems to be "I am you." If the Other is, in any way, not Sagan's friend, it has only its lack of elaboration to blame for the misunderstanding.

[[Syl]]

No, but I think I'm a bit too egocentric (not trying to disparage myself) for that.

AHhh, I see what you mean. It would challenge your egocentricism. Interesting!

Well, it's not that it would challenge it, exactly. It's just that I'm a very introspective type of person, especially when I trip (and I have used those two concurrently several times). I never had any visuals worth speaking of (which goes along with The Mind's Eye thread convo I had with Av). They were almost entirely, intensely mental. No "other," or at least not one I didn't recognize... if that makes any sense.

Don't suppose anyone else has read Wolfe's Long Sun books and can draw the same comparisons to the Outsider?

[Fist and Faith]

Hey! Wait a second! Maybe The Other was just as ignorant about and curious as Sagan's friend! Maybe "Who is it that asks the question?" wasn't meant to be cryptic, confusing, enlightening, or anything. Maybe it was more like, "Who am I? Who are you?"

[Loredoctor]

Has anyone experienced The Other?

Most certainly yes. A couple times. Never on LSD, on psylocibin.

What do you think about it, Malik?


Thanks for the responses, guys.

[Menolly]

:::composed in about five minutes by Paul, who spent three years of high school on five hits of acid a week while maintaining straight As:::

Other is Controller or Master form of Self, also Interrogator
first level dissociation of ego is the split into superego and id...both are the same at the subtle levels above
but from below, so to speak, are experienced as up and down phases
key element of the Other as experienced initially is "confidence" both as a sense of control and as a sense of optimism
key element of the downward phase is fear or loss of control; hence the idea that there are monsters in the Id
beyond this rift there is no easy way to recall experiences, and certainly it is hard to articulate them.
One way to conceptualize it is the Net of Indra, in which every particle of consciousness is a kind of gem in a shimmering web,stretching to infinity, and each reflects all the others.
Subjectively, it is like a keyhole experience, the Supreme self condescends to participate in one bauble or another, and becomes fascinated therein, then stuck forgettting true nature
or perhaps it is as if ones lives are infinite, with all possible decisions acting like tracks on a phonograph, each playing a different song, and the Controller decides which track to place the needle upon
But it is denied to us to experience multiplicities in this manner; within the gem or during the song we must play out our roles. Just in the same way we must choose a dominant eye to experience stereoscopic vision...doubling only confuses and blurs
It is not strictly speaking necessary to have a drug to deprive one of illusory consciousness
but the other pathways are far more demanding
and less reproducible according to "scientific standards"
Thus the field of entheogens comes into being, helping us uncover the gods within
Yet fasting and sleep deprivation or celibacy and flagellation are also ways to accelerate the process.
One should realize however that often the striving itself is a hindrance to the letting go necessary to advance. Yet apathy is no solution
In the end it is not an answer to a question but the realization that there is no question in the first place that is the veil
Separating the aspirant from the beloved
that is precisely self and universe
The point about the drugs is that they break down the ordinary mind forcibly, not always in a healthy way. My personal favorite is Nitrous Oxide in very high doses
for inducing the Other
LSD and Mescaline and Psilocybin are more "fun" and less systematically intense
but tend toward hedonism
And the experience becomes a kind of ecotourism of the spirit

[jwaneeta]

Has anyone experienced The Other?

Can I take the 5th on that? I was a nun for a while, though. In Western monastic tradition the experience of the Other is called "contemplation" or "ecstasy" (er, when it's not the referred to as the experience of The Other).

It's blissful in the extreme. The one who meets The Other experiences a state of clarity in which memories of all previous joys, from the simplest (say, the smell of mown grass or the taste of popcorn) to the the most intense (perfect trust and love) unite into one sustained cresendo of ecstatic happiness -- and this happiness is a Person, a single identity, the Identity, you could say, to which the individual is united by fervent love.

It's as though an occluding film or veil is dissolved, and the mysterious Other is perceived as the source all joys, great and small, perpetually present but generally unseen. The sense of relief at being reunited with this source, and the utter conviction of Its benignity, is oceanic.

For some people, the experience of God as Other becomes habitual, and instead of needing to actively seeking it by calming the mind and meditating, it becomes a persistent state requiring no effort. It is as palpable as a touch, or as St. Teresa of Avila said, "as distinct as someone speaking in the next room." When this happens it's called "infused" or "passive" contemplation.

All of this is distinct from what are generally understood to be visions and stuff like that. There are no words, or heavenly choirs, or images of dead saints in nimbi of light. The mode of perception isn't even images in the mind -- it's featureless. It doesn't include intellectual revelations or wisdom, for the most part. Those are the exception rather than the rule.

In Western Mysticism this state is not considered miraclulous, but the natural end to which all contemplatives are called. They go so far as to say it's what human beings are made for. At its most intense, it's very rightly called heaven on earth.

[Loredoctor]

How is this state achieved?

[jwaneeta]

How is this state achieved?

Are you asking me or Menolly's Paul quoted above?

[Loredoctor]

How is this state achieved?

Are you asking me or Menolly's Paul quoted above?

You.

[jwaneeta]

How is this state achieved?

Are you asking me or Menolly's Paul quoted above?

You.

Okay. I was trained as a cloistered nun in the Roman Catholic tradition, you understand, so I have to use the vocabulary I'm most familiar with. But in my experience almost all major traditions of East and West hold these principles in common.

As Paul noted above, chemical means are quicker (though I can't witness to their efficacy as I've never tried them). To reach infused contemplation by spiritual methods alone takes longer. It varies according to the individual, but it's generally a labor of years.

First, one has to learn one's own nature -- a lot of people go from cradle to grave without understanding that their consciousness resides not in the mind, but in the will. It is as if a man spent his life within a thorn hedge he'd cultivated to protect him from wild beasts, but became so invested in the hedge that he started thinking he was the hedge. The mind is a great machine, a brilliant organism, but it's not the true Self. And the mind is generally prey to transient stimulation, emotions and passions that cause a great deal of misery. A human being's true center is much deeper within, much stronger: the will.

I got a lot of help from practicing za-zen meditation, before I ever entered the monastery. The simplicity of the actual exercises is matched only by the near impossibily of mastering them, but in the struggle to do so one comes to clearly distingish the will from the phenomenal mind. It took me about two years to become proficient enough to experience the benefits of za-zen, but in the long run they were incalculable.

Following upon this comes a period of active purgation. Paul mentioned it above. It's often thought of as practices like corporal penance, fasting and whatnot, but these aren't in my opinion necessary. The point of active purgation is detachment from the phenomenal ego, and this can be achieved by practicing self surrender, or abandonment to divine providence. In practical terms it means deliberately releasing all self-oriented preoccupations such as fear, anxiety, pride, and obsessive control. There is an emphasis on simple, effortful living in one's own sphere of life, while practicing utter detachment from the results of those efforts.

In addition, one seeks to bring one's own will into union with the divine will, peacefully, repeatedly, until it becomes habitual. This requires submission and humility in difficult circumstances, and it's hell on the ego. It can be a painful struggle initially. But as the ego loses dominion, the empty spaces where it used to rule are filled with peace.

Simple contemplation follows, in which a person will begin to feel faint but beautiful periods of spiritual joy, called consolation. (The Buddhists have another word for it -- I think it's called satori but my memory may be faulty). This alternates with experiences of the Void, which is pretty horrible, to be honest. These fluctuations continue, each gaining in intensity, as the ego enters its throes. It's important for the individual to maintain the practice of interior detachment from these ups and downs, and to concentrate on such simple things as work, meditation on a regular schedule, and reading books by people who have gone through the same things.

As to meditation, the customary practice is to read a passage from a book that speaks to the individual, then to lay it aside and surrender the mind and will to God. At first the mind will be very active and noisy, but with time the activity ceases and one enters into a state of Quiet, where nothing exists but the will of the divine. This state of Quiet starts to come easier and easier, and soon the individual may find himself passing an hour without adverting to more than a few thoughts -- the rest is a sort of supension in peaceful observation, if not bliss.

As I mentioned above, for some people this state can become habitual, or infused. And the bliss can become so raptuous at times as to be physically painful at its peak -- yet curiously, it is a pain that has no power to frighten; it brings nothing but peace and joy. In fact, it's not so much like pain as a third sensation altogether: if joy were one metal, and pain were another, and they were melted and alloyed to form a third entirely new substance, that would be the nearest way to describe it. It's like nothing else in human experience.

This path does take a long time, certainly longer than availing oneself of chemical assistance. One the upside, it has the potential to become not a transitory experience but a lasting one. And to speak of all the joys that it entails would take another post entirely.

I will say this, though, and it is commonly reported by all who have enjoyed it: whatever you have suffered in this world, no matter how bitter and inexplicable it was, however long your misery, five minutes of this rapture pays for all of it.

And the bliss doesn't pass after five minutes -- it can last, literally, for years.

[Loredoctor]

First, one has to learn one's own nature -- a lot of people go from cradle to grave without understanding that their consciousness resides not in the mind, but in the will. It is as if a man spent his life within a thorn hedge he'd cultivated to protect him from wild beasts, but became so invested in the hedge that he started thinking he was the hedge. The mind is a great machine, a brilliant organism, but it's not the true Self. And the mind is generally prey to transient stimulation, emotions and passions that cause a great deal of misery. A human being's true center is much deeper within, much stronger: the will.

This is where we differ. But first off, thanks for your interesting description. I appreciate it. Anyway, I believe that the mind is the brain and the brain is the mind. All thought, all will, is the product of neurological processes (my education is in neuropsychology, just letting you know). For me self is a fuzzy, constantly growing/changing construct - brought on by life experiences, genetic factors and neural structures. That's my view.

When it comes to The Other, or rapture, or meditative states, I feel what is happening is that the brain is engaged in marvellous activity. Scans of the brain of those in meditation show altered neural patterns and different regions of the brain activating. In this sense, meditation triggers various neural pathways which switch the mind into a different state.

This is not to say, 'I believe you are wrong'. This is merely to say my view of these altered states.

Thankyou.

[jwaneeta]

This is where we differ. But first off, thanks for your interesting description. I appreciate it. Anyway, I believe that the mind is the brain and the brain is the mind. All thought, all will, is the product of neurological processes (my education is in neuropsychology, just letting you know). For me self is a fuzzy, constantly growing/changing construct - brought on by life experiences, genetic factors and neural structures. That's my view.

When it comes to The Other, or rapture, or meditative states, I feel what is happening is that the brain is engaged in marvellous activity. Scans of the brain of those in meditation show altered neural patterns and different regions of the brain activating. In this sense, meditation triggers various neural pathways which switch the mind into a different state.

This is not to say, 'I believe you are wrong'. This is merely to say my view of these altered states.

Thankyou.

My pleasure! I like to discuss these things and rarely get the chance. And your position is perfectly logical. It's based on your experience and reflections, just as my own is. Thanks for the exchange. And so to bed for me.

[Loredoctor]

My pleasure! I like to discuss these things and rarely get the chance. And your position is perfectly logical. It's based on your experience and reflections, just as my own is.

Thanks!