Lord Foul growing younger at end of TPTP

[Sandgorgon rider]

I just finished my re-reading of The Power That Preserves. Why does Lord Foul grow younger in response to Foamfollower's and the dead Lord's laughter? Why doesn't he grow older or just fade away? Is there some sort of symbolism I am missing here? For that matter why do you think Foul's "true" form i.e. what he looks like after his penumbra is ripped away, is that of a normal looking distinguished old man instead of some evil, twisted sorcerer. Is SRD trying to say something about the appearance of despite or evil. I was never good at deciphering the symbolism in my english classes

[iQuestor]

As you know, Foul appeared as a normal Human when he befriended Kevin. This was what he first appeared as after the penumbra was stripped away.

As for him growing younger, I think it was symbolic of the undoing of despite, rather than a means of destruction. Remeber Covenant was urged to kill or destroy him by the slain lords; however he replied that you cannot kill despite, he'd just come back. Therefore, the opposite of that is the un-create, or undo for lack of a better word. Laughter being the opposite of despair, it was the method used to undo Foul.

[wayfriend]

I like iquestors answer, but I don't think it's right. I don't even think this one is answerable.

Foul was never born, never grew from an infant to a man. So the hypothesis that somehow history is unwinding back to the beginning - un-creating, un-doing - doesn't hold water.

Also, we should all know that the opposite of despite is creation, not uncreation!

My best guess is that the transformation symbolizes despite being subtracted from the Land, making it more "innocent" somehow.

But that's not any better than iquestor's idea.

[Waddley]

If creation is the opposite of despite, then would TC have been able to "create" LF into non-existance? Ok, I know that doesn't make any sense, so I guess another way to ask this would be: Could, and how would, TC have been able to creation against LF?

See, this is what happens when I try to use my brain. It doesn't make any sense...

[iQuestor]

I guess to explain a little better (and I think Wayfriend is correct in saying it might be unanswerable)..

Perhaps Foul's presence was quantified by his acts and accumulation of power, so that his appearance and presence in the land was a direct correlation to the evil he had done (or perhaps the power he acquired). So that to correct this, Covenant could not destroy him, but maybe undo the damage he did, Undo his power, which would cause him to appear to grow younger as his power / influence grew smaller?

This comes from his comments somewhere in LFB that he was much diminished by the ROD, and then later grew by his subtle mecahnics to gain power. He was still quite weak when Drool found the Staff, and He knew he couldnt use it, so he was actually going for the illearth stone. Anyway, perhaps SRD meant that Foul's presence was a direct reflection of his power of despite.

I agree, he never grew and matured, he was always there since being locked into the world by the Arch, so this wasnt a literal rewind of his maturation from infant to adult.

I dunno, perhaps I have made it worse ; I guess it is something like this. This was a good question

[Sandgorgon rider]

Thank you for your comments.I think I understand a little better. Since Covenent knew that killing or destroying Foul (the personification of despite) would not really help anything and may not even be possible. He thought that laughter would reverse or weaken the power of despite. Therefore Foul growing younger indicates this reversal or a weakening of despite into a less harmful or less powerful form. The form of a child and an infant and then into non-existence shows this transformation more effectively than simply fading or shinking into nothingness.

So at the end of TPTP is Foul simply a disembodied force waiting for more self-hatred to bring him back into physical existence?

[Fist and Faith]

I find it interesting that I never thought about the question of Foul becomming an infant! I guess there's not much that's more free of Despite than an infant. I've said before that infants are love-engines.

But my theory of Foul's penumbra-less appearance comes from this:

"But it was not Despite which the Colossus resisted," Mhoram resumed when his song was done. "Despite was the bane of men. It came with them into the Land from the cold anguish of the north, and from the hungry kingdom of the south."

Foul appears as a man because his true home is the hearts of men. He wasn't in the Land when men were not. My feeling is that he didn't have any physical form after the Creator imprisoned him (if he even had one before) until he found those in whom he could flourish. He can't actually die, but that doesn't mean he can't be powerless. If the Land's earth didn't have men, he'd be nothing. Would he ever have found a home in the heart of a Ranyhyn? Of a tree? But with men, he can become powerful. It's only natural that he take that as his true form. It may be that he can't take any other.

[wayfriend]

So I think we can all agree that Foul's reverse aging was symbolic, not a rational phenomenon.

So what does youth and infancy symbolize? Innocence, as I said. Being free of hatrid, as FnF says, which may/may not be the same. Anything else? They're cute and lovable. Needy and helpless. Unmarred by experience. They way less than ten pounds. They are impotent.

If there's any connection to the rest of the story, it's tied to Foamfollower's laughter. Despite cannot be destroyed, but it can be pushed back by a glad heart.

My best guess is that the reverse aging represents Despite becoming impotent. Not just impotent, but impotent in a way that won't be returning any time soon. The reverse aging doesn't signify the past, but the future - Lord Foul would not be back until he spend a long time growing into his power.

[iQuestor]

Agreed. Infancy is symbolic of innocence, which is (or can be considered) an opposite of despair. Well said, Wayfriend.

[Zarathustra]

Yeah, I think Wayfriend has nailed it. After all, only the guilty are powerful.

I wonder why no one has asked this question on the GI? (Maybe I'll do a search . . .)

[Edit: This is the only relevant thing I could find after searching for "baby" and "infant" in the GI:

Imagery such as Lord Foul’s “regression” should probably be interpreted metaphorically. Or symbolically, if you prefer. If he is an eternal being, then notions like infancy and dotage have no literal meaning. And if he is not, then all we have to do is wait for him to die of old age.

]

[servant46]

Just a thought...what if LF represents that part of all of us that is related to choice? After all, throughout his journies TC keeps making the effort to choose life over death. I can't count how many times he is nearly dead, only to come back again, stronger, more stubborn and more tenacious than ever. His ongoing denial of his own inner power speaks again to the choice factor we all have to face each day. Foul is like TC's leprosy...eating away at him...the illearth stone is green, like the green hue of gangrenous skin...by fighting Foul with a glad heart, TC not only chooses life, but he chooses to live. By laughing with a pure heart, free finally from guilt, TC himself reverts back to a more innocent time--pre-leprosy, thus LF must follow that same path, as he/leprosy no longer swings the pendulum over TC's throat.

[Zarathustra]

Just a thought...what if LF represents that part of all of us that is related to choice? After all, throughout his journies TC keeps making the effort to choose life over death. I can't count how many times he is nearly dead, only to come back again, stronger, more stubborn and more tenacious than ever. His ongoing denial of his own inner power speaks again to the choice factor we all have to face each day. Foul is like TC's leprosy...eating away at him...the illearth stone is green, like the green hue of gangrenous skin...by fighting Foul with a glad heart, TC not only chooses life, but he chooses to live. By laughing with a pure heart, free finally from guilt, TC himself reverts back to a more innocent time--pre-leprosy, thus LF must follow that same path, as he/leprosy no longer swings the pendulum over TC's throat.

Interesting. So you're saying that since LF represents part of Covenant, and since Covenant has chosen a "purer" response to Despite, therefore LF's regression is actually a regression of some part of Covenant? A return to innocence for TC himself?

I don't really believe SRD wanted us to think of TC as returning to innocence--after all, when he returns to the "real world," he writes books about guilt and power, innocence and impotence. And TC is certainly no longer spiritually impotent. But, this also makes me rethink my earlier post here: certainly LF is becoming less powerful, but surely we're not supposed to conclude the he is becoming more innocent? So maybe there is some truth in what you're saying: it's TC's innocence SRD is symbolizing.

I always try to keep in mind that LF is part of Covenant--the part that hates lepers, the part that hates himself. Self-despite. So in that sense you're right, Foul's regression is symbolic of a change within Covenant. Rather than despising himself, he is learning to forgive himself--forgive his own mortality, his weakness, his acts of betrayal and violence. He is learning to take responsibility for his actions, which is a necessary step in forgiving himself, i.e. admitting that there is something which needs forgiving. And perhaps in some sense, this represents a more "innocent" state than denying one's responsibility and culpability. However, I choose to define this in terms of authenticity, which is distinct from innocence, though it retains some of the same connotations of "being true."

A point that hasn't been addressed here is that the Illearth Stone was necessary for this victory. White gold needed a trigger. But why is that? I've always stressed that wild magic is TC's passion, and since he has kept his emotions bottled up for so long--not allowing himself to feel--he no longer knows how to spontaneously release these emotions. So he needs a trigger. The Illearth Stone seems to me to be symbolic of leprosy, disease, death. Corruption incarnate. This would fit as a tool for the final showdown, because the root of Covenant's self-hatred was his leprosy, his own personal Illearth Stone buried in the caverns of his body. So by touching the Stone--or symbolically, confronting his leprosy/mortality directly--he allowed himself to finally feel and react to this fundamental malignancy. But rather than reacting to it in terms of loathing and despite, he chooses to laugh at it. This is a spiritual victory, to laugh at something as inevitable and undesirable as death. His laughter wasn't a dismissal or trivialization of these things, but rather an acceptance. After all, you can either deny/repress your own mortality, or accept it. You can commit suicide (physically or spiritually), or see the paradoxical beauty which lies within this decaying, finite life of ours. The absurdity of our existence can either inspire despair, or laughter. The choice is ours.

[For more on choice, do a search for Plotinus' posts.]

[servant46]

I agree with everything you said. I have the image of TC embracing; wrapping his arms around the illearth stone to destroy it. I think he embraces the ill parts of himself, sort of facing his own warts and flaws and accepting himself. You're right about him facing his own fundamental malignancy. To get to the point where he knows that all the good things about him and in him are actually the white gold--Mhoram's words, "You are the white gold", can become reality. White for purity and gold for toughness.

[dlbpharmd]

If LF's regression to infancy represents a symbolic "un-doing" of despite, why didn't the same take place at the end of WGW?

[wayfriend]

I don't know the answer, but I do know that, just as Covenant's means of achieving victory changed from the First to the Second, from confrontation and overpowering to acceptance and absorbing, so too must Foul's means of experiencing loss have changed, from being beaten back to nothing to expending oneself utterly and futilely.

So a change in the metaphoric presentation would be called for.

[iQuestor]

It would have been redundant to try to remove Foul in the same way in WGW as in TPTP, which was proven ineffective, or at best temporary; why redo what didn't last?

I suspect the ending to the last chrons will likewise be completely different.