What the HELL happened at the end of Book 4??? (Spoilers)

[kevinswatch]

IEEEEEE! OK, I really finished Choas and Order a couple of weeks ago. But I decided to put it down for a little while and let the ending sink into my brain. So now, here is my rant.

WHAT DID DONALDSON DO???

I mean, in the first 3 books, I was completely at awe with everything. His writing and story and characters. I loved how everything was going in the story, even though the story was filled with all sorts of horrible people. I would list all of the people who are horrible, but I think that everyone in the book goes under that catagory at one time or another. But it was still an awesome story, with all of the characters bouncing off of each other and not ever knowing what was really going on. And there was one small thing that I noticed that was different in the Gap from the Thomas Covenant series.

None of the major characters died.

At least, up until the last some pages of the 4th book. In Thomas Covenant, Donaldson was ALWAYS killing characters off. Not that I didn't think it was a bad idea. Sometimes I think it's good to kill some characters off if it adds to the story. But thing that I thought was interesting in the Gap was that Donaldson had yet to kill off ANY character in the first 3 books and for most of the 4th.

But THEN, I got to the end of Order and Chaos (or is it Chaos and Order. Who cares.) Let me just share with you some of the reactions I had while reading.

Jay: (Reads) (Reads). "This is pretty good. Wait... HE KILLED SIB MACKERN!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Jay: (Picks back up Gap Book 4). (Reads). Wait... HE KILLED NICK SUCCORSO!?!!?!?!??!?!?! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wait..."

(Momentary confusion lasts for a week while Jay decides if he should care if Nick the Rapist matters or not. Desides that the story would have been better off with Nick alive).

Then, Donaldson goes ahead and kills Soras as well! RIGHT AFTER I start to feel sorry for her. I mean, Donaldson just goes on a COMPLETE killing spree at the end of Book 4! Doesn't this bother anyone else but me? The only character who I didn't care who died was Milos.

Now, back to my rant in point. What's the deal with the ending to Book 4??? Now, while I thought Sib was an awesome character and I hated to see him die, I can understand that he is a secondary character, and thus, liable to being killed off. And at least Sib had a somewhat honorable death trying to save his friends.

But WHY kill Nick? I thought he was suppose to be one of the "Big Three" characters along with Morn and Angus. WHY kill him? I mean, he wasn't very nice, but he was still Nick. I was looking forward to see how he would screw up more and/or redeem himself in Book 5. But instead Donaldson kills him off, rather stupidly too. He didn't even get his revenge on Soras! Ack!

OK, so that was my rant. Like I said, it's been a couple of weeks since I read it, but there may be some things that I missed or some things that I didn't say right. But I just HAD to write them down.

I also want to point out that I still think this is a good series and I'm going to start the last book soon. But the ending to Book 4...that was really almost dissapointing. I was hoping for so much more out of Sib and Nick. To have them killed off...well, all I can say is that I hope that Donaldson redeems them even if it's just a little in Book 5.

Oh, and please, no Book 5 spoilers here, please. But feel free to argue with me on my rant. It's probably a confusing rant and I confused myself a lot. So I'll sum it up.

Basically, I am disapointed with the ending of Book 4, mainly dealing with the deaths of Sib and Nick. I am NOT disapointed with the Gap series as a whole (Yet, hehe) and Donaldson is still one of my favorite writers. Agree? Disagree? Thanks for reading, all you Gap-fans.-jay

[robo]

I really didn't like where he was taking Nick in the story so was glad he was killed. For me, he died a long time back anyway.

Sib was extra baggage.

I loved the entire setup to Sorus' demise. Very well written.

Hey, one of my favorite characters (Liete) was killed all the way back in book 3!

[robo]

I recently finished the last book for the second time. I actually liked it better this time around. The very last scene is awesome - very filmable.

[kevinswatch]

Oh yeah, I forgot about Liete and the rest of Captains Fancy dying at the end of Book 3. I never liked Liete anyway.-jay

[Skyweir]

yeah me neither ..

[Loredoctor]

I agree, it was a shame that Nick died in book 4. I could see it coming, though. Kevinswatch, you mentioned Nick was a rapist. I dont think he was. Maybe it's my memory, but Nick never raped Morn. He seduced women, but I dont think rape was something he did.

[pitchwife]

Jay,
I just finished Chaos and Order tonight, and I can understand how you feel. I was also sorry that Nick died. I think SRD went out of his way to make us hate Nick, but he wasn't such a bad guy after all. I agree with Ur-Vile, Nick wasn't a rapist, he had thought Morn wanted him, he had come to the point where he allowed himself to trust her. (Big mistake )

I kinda feel sorry for him, his whole life had been an ego-trip, trying to prove to himself that he was someone. Surous had hurt his self esteem that much. He tried to prove that he was competent, even invincible. This came out in everything he did: his need to conquer women, and his dealings as an illeagal. And then came Morn and did it to him again. He just couldn't take it, he was finished. I guess that's why he had to die. Too bad he couldn't kill Surous though, that would have given me some satisfaction. But then she wouldn't have hit Calm Horizons...

Sib... that's entirely different, I never really understood his character... his motivations seem too shallow in my eyes.

-pitch

[Loredoctor]

I'd just like to say that Nick was my favourite character in the Gap series. I know he did some pretty bad things, but I liked his charisma. I think that I pitied him as well; what Sorus did to him was dreadful, and further (this is gonna be controversial), I think it was wrong for Morn to lie to him. I mean, would Nick really have thrown her into space or sold her to the Amnion if she didn't fall for him?
Okay, killing Sib was a bit much, and turning Morn over to the Amnion was bad. But if SRD can admit to liking Angus, liking is not too bad.

[amanibhavam]

after a few weeks of rape and humiliation and with a zone-implant in my brain I would lie to God Himself to protect my integrity; so I think Morn's lie was more than understandable
it was Nick's bad luck that after so many lightweighted, brainless relationships with women he actually started to love Morn (if it was love and not self-love)

[Loredoctor]

Yeah, I agree to that. Morn did go through alot. Further, I think it was more self-love with Nick; Morn responded to him more than any other woman in his life. I dont think Nick should be blamed for this. He was hurt badly and his selfish desires with women possibly allowed him to deal with it.

[Lady Genni]

Hi. I just had to jump in on this thread about Nick. I don't feel sorry for Nick in the least where as I do feel sorry for Angus. Despite the fact that Angus's crimes were worse than Nick's. Angus was a bastard and he was willing to admit it. He knew he was a coward. His personality was warped from infancy. In a sense Angus was just perpetuating the abuse he suffered on Morn.

Nick on the other hand was warped because he built a lie about himself and believed it. He got humiliated by a woman and his pride couldn't live with that.

I'll take an honest brutal bastard vs. a self-deluded ego-maniac with some charisma, who is just as brutal but he thinks he's doing you a favor.

[pitchwife]

Lady Genni, it's great to have you on board! There aren't that many in the Gap discussions as in the TC ones.

Why do you feel sorry for Angus? I think his end was fair enough. Although I wanted Morn to forgive him, it's an unreasonable wish. If I put myself in her place I don't think I could have forgiven him. Also we the readers know about his abuse as a child, but he never told Morn about it (except for the once he shouted at her "I'm not you're son"). Understanding is maybe a step towards forgiveness, but all Morn saw was what Hashi/Dios had done to him.

It's funny that you say that Angus is honest, yes he is, I might even say honorable. I respected him for that, and his extreme ability to endure, right from the beginning, from "The Real Story".

-pitch

[Lady Genni]

I guess I feel for Angus because he was just traped in a cycle of abuse. All of his fear and running was him trying to escape "the crib" he had been in his whole life. I think his end was fair enough also. My post was along the lines of responding to the discussion about Nick's demise at the end of book 4. I was glad to see Nick go.

I too wished to see more closure between Angus and Morn. Or Angus and Davies. Maybe that being left open will lead to a second Gap series? The way that Angus just rode off in to the sunset really left a lot open.

[Loredoctor]

Good points, Lady Genni! I agree that Angus was more honest and Nick deceitful, but Angus was much worse. I don't think Angus can be excused for his past. But if we're talking about past, has not Nick suffered as well? I mean, look at what Sorus did to him. At least with Nick you knew where you stood - if you followed his act then you could trust him. Angus would just murder you for no apparent reason.
Still, what Nick did to Morn and Davies sickens me.

[Lady Genni]

Hi Ur-Vile.

Angus would just murder you for no apparent reason.
Still, what Nick did to Morn and Davies sickens me.

Agreed that Angus was a real wretch of a human being. I guess we are just debating the greater of two evils?

I for one would rather be faced with honest brutality vs dishonesty any day. You just don't know where you stand with someone who is dishonest. At least with Angus you knew he was horrible. You knew that he would kill you at the drop of a hat. Where as with Nick you start to trust that he will follow through then he double crosses you with is own agenda. Just as you start to think he wont be that bad then, (BAM - insert Batman sound effect here) he does something really bad and you feel kind of surprised and shocked.

Yet my fickle female brain can justify Morn's dishonesty but not Nicks...see how crazy SDR makes us? Sheesh I can't seem to work this out anymore. Too many transitions between abuser/victim/hero...I guess from their own perspectives they were all victims. But they were all also eachothers abusers and heroes too....sigh...can we ever work this all out?

[robo]

How can you even compare Nick and Angus?! Angus was a wretched human being, Nick a victim. Nick didn't do anything wrong!

[robo]

Donaldson tried his darndest to put Nick in as evil light as possible but it was all a lie. Nick is basically the victim of a prejudiced author. Donaldson wanted you to think Nick was some sort of evil creature but he wasn't. Gavrielle Perry explains it all much better than I:

there are lots of spoilers here:

homepages.ihug.co.nz/~gperry/Gap.htm

[Loredoctor]

Good on ya, Robo! I read Perry's article and completely agreed with her. Nick suffered too much. He was a victim. I suppose all the characters were victims in their own way. But Nick spiralled down, all because of Sorus. This is a guy who was the envy of everyone. Come on! Someone as capable as Nick certainly ended up being made to look like a madman. All because of Sorus and Morn. Even his death was humiliating for the guy.

[ÐragonForever]

Angus was tortured in the crib by his mother. He was a hateful, sadistic, bastard.
Nick managed to survive being set adrift in the original Captain's Fancy (wasn't he?).

Angus used his ship's thrusters to fry a mining camp. He inflicted a zone implant on Morn, abused her, raped her, lied, cheated and stole.
Nick gave some relatively legal illegals a life, and a career. He even worked for the police.

Angus saved Morn, saved Davies, saved Warden Dios out of a sense of personal duty to save them.
Nick abandoned Captain's Fancy, abandoned Morn, abandoned (and killed, too) Sib Mackern, out of a sense of personal revenge against Sorus Chatelaine.

Angus lived.
Nick died.

It's an illustration of character development and turnaround. Sure, Angus was what he was. Not much can change that. But he made some amends. Nick, OTOH, just sank lower and lower; he couldn't handle how things work out, and in the end he destroyed himself.


Btw, if you really don't like SRD killing off a mere 2-3(?) characters, then I don't recommend you read A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin, an excellent author.

[Lady Genni]

Just for the record, Nick did rape and beat up Morn. Remember when she went to the sick bay and didn't erase the fact that she was pregnant because she wanted it on the records that Nick had beat up a pregnant woman? She used the zone implant to trick him but she didn't want him. He just bought it because of his huge ego.

Everyone in this story was a victim. It's how they responded to their victimization that makes them the characters that we love. (and love to hate!)