The Chronicles FILMED!

Post by **Seafoam Understone** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:53 pm

[/quote]Skyweir wrote: yes true .. I recently watched my copy of Princess Bride again .. and just basked in the brilliance of Andre the Giants role of .. umm .. well the giant.

Yes and who better?
Inigo : That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
Fezzik: Fuss, fuss ... I think he like to scream at *us*.
Inigo : Probably he means no *harm*.
Fezzik : He's really very short on *charm*.
Inigo : You have a great gift for rhyme.
Fezzik : Yes, yes, some of the time.
Vizzini : Enough of that!
Inigo : Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik : If there are, we all be dead!
Vizzini : No more rhymes now, I mean it!
Fezzik : Anybody want a peanut?
Vizzini : DYEEAAHHHHHH!!

Skyweir wrote;he was perfect not only in size .. but in all respects.

Very true, but he was a terror in the ring (even if it was all fake). Imagine going head to head with him. Look at the wrestling match between him and Ewles... that should tell ya something.

Skyweir wrote: too bad he's no longer with us .. evenso I dont see Foamy being well portrayed by him per se .. but he aint the only giantish person that could take such a role

Foamy?? *ahem*

Anyway I agree. He would have made a good giant for the second chronicles and perhaps have played one of the minor character giants.
As for Foamfollwer I dunno who could play him but the actor must have a natural deep bass voice. Whenever I read any dialogue of Saltheart I have this deep (but gentle) voice in my head. So the actor who would portray him would need to bring that off. As I mentioned LOTR showed that size wouldn't be a problem anymore.

Skyweir wrote: and Hagred is brilliant played by ..whathisname??

Hagrid is played by Robbie Coltrane who by the way stands only 6-1 so his half-giant blood size was also CGI. "I shouldn't have said that.. I shouldn't have said that!"

Skyweir wrote: but I agree cgi .. can do wonders with raw materials .. not only in enhancing them .. but also in creating them.
I liked Shrek .. but wouldnt like to see a Shrek like foamy ..

True, neither would any of us I would think. Gollum was excellently done but then Gollum wasn't fully a hobbit anymore. Hobbits as you know are closely related to Men-folk.
I know that the Ranyhyn can be done by using large horses as Clydsdales, (shorn of their long hairs at the hooves) as well as Belgians and the massive Percherons which can weigh in as much as 2000 lbs. The white stars would of course be a bit of make up each would have to put up with each morning for shooting. But they'd be magnificent to see on the screen without the usual halters and reins and tackle one sees on them when they're doing their usual work as Draft Horses. Now getting a bunch of them to all rear at the same time is gonna be a neat trick.

Post by **danlo** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:06 pm

Christian Bale--see the Member's gallery in the Album...

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:27 pm

Seafoam Undertone wrote:Inigo : That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
Fezzik: Fuss, fuss ... I think he like to scream at *us*.
Inigo : Probably he means no *harm*.
Fezzik : He's really very short on *charm*.
Inigo : You have a great gift for rhyme.
Fezzik : Yes, yes, some of the time.
Vizzini : Enough of that!
Inigo : Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik : If there are, we all be dead!
Vizzini : No more rhymes now, I mean it!
Fezzik : Anybody want a peanut?
Vizzini : DYEEAAHHHHHH

i love that scene! you are right about Andre's limitations too! I watched a making of Princess Bride .. and CArey Ewles was talking about the difficulty Andre had with learning the lines

poor guy .. but his slowness made him all the more appealing for this particular part!

yeah i agree re: the voice .. it does sound a deep bass voice in my head too ..
I like what they did with Robby Coltrane .. he was perfect for the role of Hagred ..

Christopher Bale is the perfect TC .. undoubtedly .. and a good second imho .. is Guy Pearce .. he has that gauntness I visualise inTC ..

Post by **[Syl]** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:42 am

Really, just download an ep of Farscape, look at and listen to Anthony Simcoe play D'Argo, and you'll see there's no question.

Post by **Theo** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:09 am

Ryzel wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:Quick question - it has always seemed to me that TCTC would make an unpopular movie due to the early rape scene. Lena's rape is so central to TC's character - is it possible to remove that scene from a movie without dramatically changing who TC is?
Maybe they could start "In medias res" or whatever, and then we could get the information we need by listening to TC's ranting.

Making my first serious post here… This is gonna be pretty lengthy and rambling, but please bear with me.

I’ve been giving this stuff some thought over the last few days, so far restricted to just a movie version of Lord Foul’s Bane. I agree with some of you that if narrated in more or less the same way as the book, there would be a huge problem with the rape of Lena and its aftermath – or, more properly, its lack of an aftermath until much later.

In fact, I don’t think this works very well in the book either. I remember reading LFB the first time. I was shocked and disgusted by the rape scene (it also took me by complete surprise), but that wasn’t the big problem. After the scene with Triock, to which Covenant seems completely oblivious, this stuff isn’t mentioned again at all for hundreds of pages – it doesn’t come back to haunt him until they’re with the Ramen, if I remember correctly. For those hundred-odd pages I was stuck with the impression that both Covenant and the omniscient narrator had just forgotten about the incident. Needless to say, this pretty much spoiled my enjoyment of the next several scenes because I was just fuming, “Yes, yes, but what about that g-dd-mned rape?” I couldn’t just, as the author seemed to expect me to, put it aside to take in the several important points during Covenant’s journey to Revelstone. Later on, this of course does lead to all sorts of interesting follow-ups, but those hundred-odd pages of just ignoring the whole thing badly hurt my appreciation of LFB.

Rereading the book years later, I can sort of see the point better. The Land hasn’t really begun to be real to Covenant, and during the scene with Triock, he’s completely preoccupied with the simultaneous discovery that he’s got feeling back in his hands. This certainly makes sense on its own terms. However, I still don’t think it works.

And, to get back on topic, I suspect many viewers of a hypothetical LFB movie might have the same problem with it I did. I certainly don’t think the rape itself is an insurmountable problem, but it and its implications would have to be addressed in the story right away.

My solution, if I were to make the LFB movie (speaking very hypothetically here), would probably be something like this. I’d focus hard on the Land originally being unreal and unbelievable to Covenant, in part by trying to make the scenes themselves somewhat dreamlike and surrealistic (less so as the film goes on), in part by presenting a somewhat chopped-up narrative, with flashbacks and “blank spots”. Sometimes, a scene might be flashbacked “cast in a new light”, so that we (and Covenant) now really see what happened or what was said, rather than what we thought the first time around. This way, the story of what really happened with Covenant and Lena could be pieced together gradually and the truth of the rape could become shockingly clear to him at a fairly late point – say, at the Ramen’s.

This would of course mean taking liberties with the text, mostly in implying that Covenant doesn’t actually realize what he does and has done until much later. In my humble opinion, however, this interpretation is the best way to make sense of the events in LFB as they stand. This would also, I think, be the best way of ‘selling’ the idea to an unsuspecting audience.

I’m not sure if I’m making much sense at all. I have a pretty clear idea of this in my head but it’s really hard to put it clearly in words. If I had any experience in drafting movie scripts I could try getting down a few examples, but not right now.

So, do I rave? You decide.

Theo

Post by **CovenantJr** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:21 am

I think that's a very good point. One of the reasons I tend to oppose books becoming films is because they always take liberties, but I can see the value in it on this occasion. IMO, yours is the best suggestion yet, Theo

With regards to dreamlike scenes, I was just flicking through LFB yesterday, and I found the Celebration of Spring scene. The part with Covenant racing ur-Viles towards the middle of the circle strikes me as very dreamlike... Or at least, it's like my dreams

So I think there's something of a dreamlike quality in the early stages of the books anyway

Post by **Seafoam Understone** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:16 pm

Theo makes an excellent point but as Murrin in a different discussion points out Covenant does realize what he's done in Chapter 7 of LFB when questioned by the quorum of Lords in Revelstone and a young servant girl was bringing Covenant food, when he refused to eat the girl's response ironically (and tragically) brought the crime forefront to his mind:
-----------------------------
He glanced up at her.

'You must take food,' she scolded. 'Already you are half dead.' Her shoulders were squared, drawing her shift tight over her breasts. She reminded him of Lena.

Prothall was saying, 'He has not told us all that occured at the Celebration. The ravage of the Wraiths was not prevented - yet we believe he fought the ur-viles in some way. His companion blamed both herself and him for the ill which befell the Dance.'

Covenant trembled. Like Lena, he thought. Lena?

Darkness pounded at him like claws of vertigo. Lena?

For an instant, his vision was obscured by roaring and black waters. Then he crashed to his feet. He had done that to Lena - done that? He flung the girl aside and jumped toward the fire. Lena! Swinging his staff like an axe, he chopped at the blaze. But he could not fight off the memory, could not throw it back. The staff twisted with the force of the blow, fell from his hands. Sparks and coals shattered, flew in all directions. He had done that to her! Shaking his half-fist at Prothall, he cried, 'She was wrong! I couldn't help it!' - thinking, Lena! What have I done? - 'I'm a leper!'
-----------------------------
Of course no one else in the room had the slightest idea that he was speaking of Lena and not Atairan, this is a guy that just freaked out and started attacking the fire. Luckily he wasn't killed by the surrounding Bloodguard. I mean they gotta be thinking "Does he Rave?"

Thus Covenant carried the guilt of his crime within him ever since he got up off Lena's body. It was only repressed. He still carried that guilt all the way to when he met the Ramen.
If done well enough the scene described above could adequately portray the guilt/shame/anger that Covenant was feeling and how it came upon him all at once "...But he could not fight off the memory, could not throw it back."

Reading it we may begin to feel pity for the first time at Covenant's predicament in the Land...after all it was a dream... wasn't it?

Also this small note of Atairan made by a "Guest" elsewhere on this forum...very insightful:
"And I can't even imagine how difficult it must have been for Atairan to travel alone with him, knowing what he did to Lena. her duty makes her take him on towards Revelstone, all the while knowing how hurt her only child must be. Her heart would have wept every step of the way to resist going to help her daughter. And fear! If you were a woman traveling alone with a man who raped a young virgin, wouldn't you be afraid, at least a little bit? What's going to keep him from doing the same to you? I bet she slept with a knife very close by... "

Thus a fade to black scene could be one showing Atairan laying her head down to sleep...eyes on Covenant and quietly bringing a (stone) knife into frame to slip it underneath the bed roll she's using for a pillow...fade"
This should at least bring audiences to a sense of closure for the mother who must perform her duty (to the Land) but watches her charge warily.

Post by **Triock** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:43 pm

Theo wrote: The Land hasn’t really begun to be real to Covenant, and during the scene with Triock, he’s completely preoccupied with the simultaneous discovery that he’s got feeling back in his hands. This certainly makes sense on its own terms. However, I still don’t think it works.

When TC noticed that he has feeling back in his hands this proves to him that the Land isn't real. He believes that his only way to stay sane and to end the "dream" is to ignore the past and keep moving forward. I believe that this is the reason that the rape isn't mentioned for chapters.

LFB Chapter 8 Dawn of the Message
"He did not think about Lena; he knew instinctively tha he could not afford to think about her. He had violated her trust, violated the trust of the Stonedown; that was as close to his last nights rage as he could go. It was as close to his last nights rage as he could go. It was past irrevocable-- and illusory, like the dream itself. With an effort that made him tremble, he put it behind him. Almost by accident on Kevin's Watch, he had discovered the answer to all such insanity: keep moving, don't think about it, survive. That answer was even more necessary now."

Post by **[Syl]** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 12:58 am

I think we have a couple Dissection candidates here.

Good analyses.

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:17 am

Seafoam wrote:

Theo makes an excellent point but as Murrin in a different discussion points out Covenant does realize what he's done in Chapter 7 of LFB when questioned by the quorum of Lords in Revelstone and a young servant girl was bringing Covenant food, when he refused to eat the girl's response ironically (and tragically) brought the crime forefront to his mind:
-----------------------------
He glanced up at her.

'You must take food,' she scolded. 'Already you are half dead.' Her shoulders were squared, drawing her shift tight over her breasts. She reminded him of Lena.

Prothall was saying, 'He has not told us all that occured at the Celebration. The ravage of the Wraiths was not prevented - yet we believe he fought the ur-viles in some way. His companion blamed both herself and him for the ill which befell the Dance.'

Covenant trembled. Like Lena, he thought. Lena?

Darkness pounded at him like claws of vertigo. Lena?

For an instant, his vision was obscured by roaring and black waters. Then he crashed to his feet. He had done that to Lena - done that? He flung the girl aside and jumped toward the fire. Lena! Swinging his staff like an axe, he chopped at the blaze. But he could not fight off the memory, could not throw it back. The staff twisted with the force of the blow, fell from his hands. Sparks and coals shattered, flew in all directions. He had done that to her! Shaking his half-fist at Prothall, he cried, 'She was wrong! I couldn't help it!' - thinking, Lena! What have I done? - 'I'm a leper!'

This scene happened at Manhome, not in Revelstone.

Theo's suggestions above are good ones. Personally, I don't believe TCTC would adapt well - it lacks the romanticism of LOTR or Dune, and TC's brazen behavior would turn many viewers off.

Post by **Seafoam Understone** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:10 pm

Oh-kay, I'll stand corrected.
But there is a line in the chapter after the rape where "...the Milthil washed away his vomit as if nothing had ever happened..." Thus he was sickened by the deed.
Good point that there is little or no romance in the book until TOT unless you want to count Covenant slamming the door in LA face after screaming "Goddammit if I wanted any visitors I'd post a sign!" She stated later that it was love at first sight.

True that the lack of apparent love interest in the proposed film "may" make it unpopular with female audiences but that's only if that is what they were looking for.
There are numerous women throughout the series that are strong and carry their honor well. Several of the Lords are women. Atairan, Manethrall and Lithe. There are also women warriors among the Warward. All in the first series. Then LA, the First (my personal fav) the Ghaddi's favorite (forgot her name

) and Holliand.
There isn't much room for romance in the beginning of Covenant's story. The loss of Joan to be sure, but consideration that TC isolated himself and has the disease of leprosy, there aren't too many women who would attach themselves to such a person. LA to be sure but she wasn't interested in romance when they first met.

Post by **amanibhavam** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 5:35 am

okay, let's agrre on something: are we planning a Holywoodoo blockbuster-romantic-hapyending movie or something true to the books and the true depth of SRD's writing?

Post by **Seafoam Understone** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:09 am

Personally, I'd want something true to the books. In-so-far LOTR have been (within reason) true. (BE TRUE

) With one or two liberties. Nice thing is that they are coming out with special 4 disk editions of DVD's that fill in those huge gaps in the story.

But knowing Hollywood they'll want something more along the lines of a happy ending type. According to them audiences prefer it. And not surprisingly because movies have always been a medium to escape the pressures of the outside world. But some films do get away with the tragic and heart-rendering (Godfathers, Platoon, Braveheart, etc.).

Or they'll change the ending because (test) audiences didn't like/understand the original. i.e. Shawshank Redemption: Freeman's character Red gets on the bus and quotes those wonderful lines about "I hope..." and the film FTB. Test audiences went..."well gee.. did he meet up with his friend?" " I want to see the reunion." and bla bla bla. They went back and re-edited/filmed the ending.

Test audiences obviously missed the point of the "I hope" speech but they'll usually win out everytime.

Thus... a screen writer may turn in/submit a terrific story/film, but 99% of the time the director and/or producer will be calling them in the middle of the night saying "hey uhh, we gotta change this scene here...it's just isn't gonna work."

So, (sigh) how can we as fans manage to have a true to book (1st) movie (LFB) that'll leave (uninitiated) audiences walking out feeling at least.... "oh-kay" ?
_______________________

and if you haven't seen Shawshank Redemption... SHAME-ON-YOU!
...at a video store near you...

Post by **[Syl]** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:31 am

Heh, I think a lot of people are going to be upset in a couple months...

Post by **Theo** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:18 am

Alright, one at a time, now.

Triock, Seafoam, dlbpharmd:

Thanks for the pointers (I admit I don't have LFB at my fingertips), but I feel I might not have made my point wholly clear. I realize perfectly well that the suggested interpretation I sketched is a deliberate departure from the written text. I did not mean to suggest that the treatment of the story in the books is illogical, makes no sense or is otherwise terminally wrong (although I do stand by my personal opinion that it initially doesn't work very well, but that's just that - an opinion). What I do suggest is that it wouldn't work in a movie. For instance:

Triock wrote:When TC noticed that he has feeling back in his hands this proves to him that the Land isn't real. He believes that his only way to stay sane and to end the "dream" is to ignore the past and keep moving forward. I believe that this is the reason that the rape isn't mentioned for chapters.

Try conveying that in a visual way.

What one's got to remember is that movies are a different "language" to books. In order to get a "translation" to work right you sometimes have to deviate from the literal text to bring out its spirit. (Us Swedes, who read translated stuff all our lives, might appreciate this more - I don't know.)

Which brings me neatly on to the next point.

amanibhavam wrote:okay, let's agrre on something: are we planning a Holywoodoo blockbuster-romantic-hapyending movie or something true to the books and the true depth of SRD's writing?

Excellent question. I don't think we necessarily need to agree, but it's a good idea if everyone makes clear what kind of movie s/he's talking about.

"My" LFB movie would certainly not be a "Hollywoodoo blockbuster-romantic-happy-ending movie", but I would want to make it a rousing fantasy adventure, though with a dark, dreamlike quality. It's always hard to compare with other films, but I imagine a feel vaguely similar to a cross between Pete Jackson's Fellowship of the ring, Excalibur and Dragonslayer, perhaps with a slight visual touch of Luc Besson's Joan of Arc (the psychedelic flashbacks and slightly skewed close-ups fit right in

). It might end up very different from a straight dramatization of the book's text. This has to do with what I've been ranting about earlier - the different "languages".

The way I see it, what Donaldson does in LFB is describing the Land and its events in a straight, matter-of-fact style, while recording Covenant's often unbalanced reactions to it and, most of all, contrasting the reader's reactions to Covenant's. Tension is created by showing the reader stunning images of beauty, truth and honour and then having the supposed viewpoint character, the one we're accustomed to sympathize with, piss all over it. I think this would be extraordinary hard to pull off in a movie. We could be hearing Covenant's thoughts all the time (in fact I would use this device a little bit), but that would get silly. You have to get the tension another way.

The ideas I outlined above, with having Covenant's journey through the Land seem highly unreal and dreamlike at first, then gradually becoming more "real" and coherent, would be a way to try to fix that problem. The coolest thing, I think, would be if this process goes on throughout the movie, so that by the end of the film the Land seems hyper-real to the viewer, and when Covenant returns to the "real" world it doesn't seem so much like reality as moving into another dream.

To put it another way: when I read LFB, I continually grind my teeth at Covenant being such a jerk. In my (highly) hypothetical LFB movie, his smegheadedness wouldn't be a constant and obvious annoyance but rather creep up on the viewer and shock him/her in some key scenes that cast a whole new light on stuff they've seen earlier on.

Well, I guess I'm getting pretty incoherent myself here.

Am I making any sense to you at all?

Theo

Post by **Dragonlily** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:04 pm

The answer to the problem of filming the rape would be to make clear every single thought and sensation going through Covenant, from the moment he meets Lena. That is how Donaldson makes it acceptable to the reader. Because I understand what he is going through, I find it possible to sympathize with Covenant through everything -- until he starts beating himself metaphorically bloody every time he thinks of it.

Covenant is in anguish every moment, no matter how he appears. Reach the audience's sympathies.

Joy

Post by **[Syl]** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 3:04 pm

This is just my take on it, but I say don't even let on to the fact that it happened until Triock blurts it out after attacking him. Call me your typical jaded american, but a rape scene isn't as shocking as it was back when A Clockwork Orange came out. What would be shocking... just picture this double take... "Wait a minute, wait a minute! He did what?" Besides, it'd help to avoid an NC-17 rating.

Post by **Seafoam Understone** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:04 pm

My first thought would be that SRD fanatics would be yelling COP OUT COP OUT... BUT!! that is a good way to do that. With the scene at Manhome utilizing the flashbacks "...he done THAT to her?"
Also you're correct that a rape scene wouldn't be as shocking to TODAY's audiences with all the violence anc crime that's been exposed to date.
Likewise with Theo's observation that books and movies DO speak a totally different language. Both are visual mediums but one relies more on the "viewers" imagination whereas the other fills in the blanks.

Theo you said

"My" LFB movie would certainly not be a "Hollywoodoo blockbuster-romantic-happy-ending movie", but I would want to make it a rousing fantasy adventure, though with a dark, dreamlike quality.

Are you writing one? I'm right now in the middle of researching (yes folks even novels have to be researched to write a proper script) and will be using THIS site quite frequently as the screen play gets written... even bits and pieces of it will be shown here so it's not gonna be a "top-secret" no-one knows kind of thing... and yes... credit will be given where it's due as always with me. Personal psych profile said I hated the limelight.

Anyway, it's surprising that in-so-far that no-one has attempted (or mayhap they have) to create these wonderful chronocles on film... but with Peter Jackson's work shining brilliantly... it won't be long before someone does. I'd say let it be US the REAL fans to ensure that proper treatment of our favorite leper is done.

Post by **[Syl]** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:20 pm

Not a bad idea, Seafoam. It's new, but it might work. I mean, people said the Save Farscape campaign would be a waste of time, but... ok, bad example (kidding... actually a very good example. there was just no way to effect change in that situation). More and more people are paying attention to the fact that the internet actually empowers fans to a degree never before thought possible.

Post by **amanibhavam** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 8:53 pm

Sylvanus wrote:This is just my take on it, but I say don't even let on to the fact that it happened until Triock blurts it out after attacking him. Call me your typical jaded american, but a rape scene isn't as shocking as it was back when A Clockwork Orange came out. What would be shocking... just picture this double take... "Wait a minute, wait a minute! He did what?" Besides, it'd help to avoid an NC-17 rating.

I do not know - would it be actually such a bad thing to have it NC-17? I mean the whole story of the Chronicles isn't really an easygoing lightweight fantasy adventure along the lines of, say, Willow. It lies heavily on one's mind, forces you to rethink a lot of things about sin, punishment, guilt, redemption, tolerance, acceptance, you name it.
As for the rape scene - it wouldn't be necessary actually to see the watcher through the whole scene, it would be enough to cut at the point where Covenant knots his fist in the fabric of Lena's clothes to tear them off - cut - and the next thing you see is Covenant lying there as if stricken and Lena covering behind a bush sobbing and sneakinfg away in the dark in torn clothes. The audience could pretty easily figure out what happened. But the rape is crucial to the whole story - not only because Elena and TC's redemption, but because it is also a symbol: a paraphrase of what Foul does to the Land; the whole Chronicles is about - among other things - how TC gets to separate his dark self from his true soul.