What REALLY happened at the end of the Second Chronicles?

[Skyweir]

this Foul=TC theory is a connection TC makes in his mind .. and I think Foul himself tells TC this too .. but its a little like believing anything Suddam Hussein says .. isnt it?? Amy is right it is not explicitly stated anywhere that this is so ..

And I agree to believe this then you must accept that the Land is not real .. and I have a hard time coming to grips with that! To me the Land is real .. not imaginary or a part of TC's subconscious mind ..

I agree with LA being flawed .. and her healing may also be flawed .. ofcourse it is yet to be seen .. but there is a very good chance that this is correct imo.

As far as TC seeing LA through some 'veil' or window between worlds .. I dont know .. I never heard of the inhabitants being able to keep an eye on people from our world before .. I think that TC even though he is physically dead .. is still bound by universal laws that govern the 2 existences .. sure he belongs to a different kind of dimension now .. but we dont really know what that means yet.

mmm.. all very interesting thoughts ..

[caamora]

I just finished re-reading the books (for the millionth time!) and my understanding was that LF never touched the AoT with white gold because TC absorbed the blast.

While her mind lasted, she could still watch what the Despiser did, still send her protest to hound him into the heavens.
A maelstrom swept around him and grew as if he meant to break the Earth by consuming it alive. His fire was so extreme that it pulsed through the mountain, made all of Mount Thunder pound. But gradually he pulled the flame into himself, focused it in the hand that held the ring. Too bright to be beheld, his fist throbbed like the absolute heart of the world.
With a terrible cry, he hurled his globe-splitting power upward.
An instant later, his exaltation changed to astonishment and rage.
Somewhere in the rocks which enclosed Kiril Threndor, his blast shattered. Because it was aimed at the Arch of Time, it was not an essentially physical force, though the concussion of its delivery nearly reft Linden of consciousness. It did no physical damage. Instead, it burst as if it had struck a midnight sky and snapped. In a fathomless abyss, ruptured fragments of fire shot and blazed.
And the hot lines of light spread like etchwork, merged and multiplied swiftly, took shape within the bulk of the mountain. From wild magic and nothingness, they created a sketch of a man.

So, I don't think that LF ever touched the AoT.

I had never considered, however, the idea that having poured herself into the staff and the healing of the Land, that she may have ruined everything in the Land because of all her issues! Good idea!

[Skyweir]

This is a nice quote that also supports Caamora's assertion that LF didnt touch the AoT because TC absorbed LF's attempts to destroy it ..

Blast after blast, faster and faster. Enough white power to bring Mount Thunder down in rubble, cast it off Landsdrp into the ruinous embrace of Sarangrave Flat. Enough to leave teh One Tree itself in ash and cinders. Enogh to shatter the Arch of Time. All Lord Foul's ancient puissance was multiplied and channelled by the argent ring: he struck and struck, the unanswerable knell of his hunger adumbrating through Kiril Threndor until Linden's mind reeled and her life almost stopped, unable to support the magnitude of his rage. She clung to Covenant's body as if it were her last anchor andfought to endure and stay sane while Lord Foul strove to rip down the essential definition of the Earth.

But each assault hit nothing except the spectre, hurt nothing except Covenant. Blast after blast, he absorbed the power of Despite and fire and became stronger: surrendering to their savagery, he transcended them. Every blow elevatd him from the mere grieving spectation of the Dead in Andelain, the ritualized helplessness of the Unhomed in Coercri to the stature of pure wild magic.

If he had not been limited and confined by the mortal Time of his prison, he would have gone on forever, seeking Covenants eradication.

[Vain]

The concept of The Land being affected by the flaws in Lindens character is interesting - could we expect it to attempt suicide?

I liked it when Foul was lurking in the shadows - using Drool to do all the work So I would expect Foul to take command of Nom - who is now a sentient creature. Or maybe not

[Nathan Brazil]

I dimly recall something mentioned by Covenant to Linden as to being worried about Foul seeking to strike the Arch instead of him. Foul obviously was aiming at the Arch the first time. I have also wondered if Covenant absorbed that first blast, but it obviously was not directed at him by Foul.

I truly find the subject of Linden's healing of the Land fascinating. My favorite part is when she gathers into herself the Sunbane and sort of "reeducates" (or dictates to?) nature on how to function. Scary to think that she is given this task given her flaws. But then again, there is no one else.

IMO, SRD introduced her character as part of the whole Land-analogy-to-the-body concept he was at least hinting at throughout the series. Thus, as a doctor, she can assess what needs to be done and fix it. Problem is, the Land and the human body are not exactly the same.

Perhaps the best expression of the potential flaws in her work lies in straightening out the Giant's spine. It is done in such expedient fashion, does she wonder at the consequences of wholly redoing the manner in which someone is accustomed to being? Sight to the blind man, mobility to the paralyzed, healing to a horribly wounded Land that had frankly adjusted to its condition to some degree.

Even with the compassion she brought to bear on the subject, the naivete with which she seemed to address the healing of the Land seems at odds with all of the thought processes she went through in overcoming her possession by the Raver. Her healing instincts, rather than intellect, dictated her actions.

The question is begged, truly: What would you do if you were the Creator? How would you fix things? The enormity of her task and obligation is simply astounding.

[Skyweir]

I am not sure about that .. but I did read something very interesting in WGW today .. which I never picked up before .. and that is TC telling LA that she and he are the Land.

ch.21 To say farewell WGW

We arent enemies, no matter what he says. He and I are one. but he doesnt seem to know that. Or maybe he hates it too much to admit it. Evil cant exist unles the capacity to stand against it also exists.

and this is where it interested me ..

And you and I are the Land - in a manner of speaking, anyway.

'In a manner of speaking' - TC qualifies ..

what does this mean?? If LF are TC are one and LA and TC are the Land what does that say LA is? If this theory that LF and TC are opposing sides of TC's or LF's alter ego .. then the Land is an imaginary creation of one of them .. probably TC's and following on from that LA is then also a product of TC's imagination. But I dont completely buy that .. and I have always believed in the Land as being real. But if LF and TC are one .. also just .. 'as a manner of speaking' .. somehow??!? .. but not in fact .. one being .. then .. the Land and LA are also real. So then what does TC mean when he tells LA that he and she are the Land??

He's just one side of us

So then .. LF is one side of TC and LA which equates to .. or are .. representative of 'the Land'. Then this whole alter-ego theory goes out of the window .. unless you factor Linden into the equasion.

Thats his paradox. He's one side of us. We're one side of him. When he killed me the other half of himself killed me, he was really trying to kill the other half of himself ... As long as I accepted him - or accepted myself, my own power, didnt try to do to him what he wanted to do to me - he couldnt get past me.

I believe TC is saying that LF who is despite .. is a part of us all .. TC possessed despair as the Creator previously told him .. and he had to overcome that flaw in him .. to realise the power that was also in him .. power of hope .. power of that which defeats despair ..

and when LA and TC parted he told her ..

I'm part of you now. You'll always remember .. I will be with you as long as you live.

Is this just a lovelly platitude?

I think it might be .. I think he is saying as we do that the deceased will always live in our hearts and in our memories

.. but beyond that .. I think TC will have a connection with LA which transcends her memories .. and that connection will unite them across the great divide of space and time .. and may even prove to be more real than we can conceive.

[Furls Fire]

WOW...this thread is awesome! I want to bring it back. Now that we have a concept of what the Last Chronicles will be, it would be interesting to rehash some of these arguments.

There is the theory that Covenant becomes Lord Foul in the Last Chrons. (I'm still waiting for that book where SRD says this.) Which brings to the fore front the theory that they have always been two sides of the same coin. But, what about Linden? I like how in this thread it was discussed how she could have "flawed" the Land's healing at the end of the Second Chrons. And then there is the question...How DOES Covenant exist in the Land now? We know he is there in some way. I don't believe he will be Foul at the beginning of the story. How will the breaking of the Laws of Death and Life affect existance in the Land now? How did Foul regain himself again after "going out" at the end of WGW? Did he use Time this time? Or the Earthpower again? Covenant is the Keystone of the Arch of Time now, did Foul use him and corrupt him to regain his strength? Is Jeremiah just a tool for Foul to get Linden to bring the White Gold to the Land, or does he want him for something else?

Endless questions... But, I think this thread is awesome. So I thought it would be fun to bring it back.

[Mr. Land]

I remember reading somewhere that Donaldson stated that since the Law of Death had been broken it wouldn't be a problem bringing Covenant back.

[Furls Fire]

Yes I read that too. Actually he was referring to both laws...Life and Death. The Law of Life being broken is what enabled Hollian and her child to be brought back from the Dead. So, we will see Covenant is some form, I'm sure.

[Fist and Faith]

I keep telling you folks, the Land is Covenant's dream. That's why a guy from one reality is the keystone to another reality. And that's why he and Foul are one. He imagines the Land, but he's so bitter about his life, that he can't manage to make it perfect. He puts banes in it. But he can't bear to have marred such beauty, and he can't bear the weakness that drove him to it, so he splits off this other personality that he can pin the blame on. By the end of TPTP, he recognizes the Creator, which is the pure good that he wishes he was. Foul is the evil that he wishes he was not. And the main personality accepts that he truly is both.

At the end of the 2nd Chronicles, he begins drawing the other personalities back into himself.

Everybody clear?

*ducking*

Wow, this is an old thread! Before Fire posted, it hadn't had a post since before I joined the Watch!! Now I've gotta read it.

[Furls Fire]

LOL Fist! Well, if the Land IS just Covenant's dream...it should have died when he did on the rock by Foul's bonfire. And if it IS just HIS dream, how do you explain Linden, and now Roger and Jeremiah...and who ever else is going to be swept off to the Land this time? All the people who burned themselves in Foul's fire. Then there's Berenford and Linden after all had come to pass, talking about treating the burns. Covenant is dead, how could he be dreaming this? Unless, of course, my funny thought really is what is going to happen....that it is STILL a dream and Covenant will wake up at the end of the last book...next to Joan, at Haven Farm, with infant Roger sleeping in the next room...

"Wow, what a nightmare!" As he sits up in bed and looks around and feels his fingers and toes. "Nope, I don't have leprosy."

[Dromond]

OK, I'll throw the second brick at Fist!
The Creator heals him at the end of TPTP. Berenford says I don't understand; just like that - you're healed. I think he even calls it a miracle.

[Fist and Faith]

Child's play to both of you!!!

Covenant met someone named Linden, and imagined her involvement in the Land. Same with everyone else. But he truly has leprosy, which is why he is so bitter that he can't even imagine beauty without messing it up.

Also easy enough to find a religious group out there who you can fit into your dreams of crazy cults.

As for him being dead, he's only dying. Not dead yet. Assuming he didn't imagine the entire stabbing while spying on the cult.

And the "miraculous" healing happens all the time. A person's will to live can be extraordinary.

[Dromond]

[Fist and Faith]

I can see it both ways. I just argue this side because nobody else does.
At the end of the day (anybody? ), I don't care if the Land, Haruchai, Giants, Ranyhyn, Mhoram, Sunder, etc., are the creation of SRD and Covenant, or just SRD. I get the same thing from them all either way.

[Furls Fire]

LOL! So that is what all that's about huh? I agree with you, at this point, it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. It's a glorious story no matter who is "dreaming" it.

[Believer]

Hmm... I personally prefer to believe that LA was able to get the Land pretty much the way it should have been. Just because from a storytelling perspective, I like the idea that Foul is able to return, restore himself, and corrupt time (!) starting with a reality/Land that is essentially whole.

Of course, in a way SRD already did not do this, because the destruction of the Staff of Law made it easier for Foul to corrupt the Earthpower.

Q: If the Staff of Law is now living, wouldn't it work to correct anything LA had done wrong? Though I guess LA was supposed to provide the "human" living part of it, so maybe not. Though, she could see the "wrong" of the Sunbane, so maybe as she was restoring the Earthpower she could see when it was right.

Still -- in the 2nd Chronicles, the mechanism through which Foul corrupts Earthpower into the Sunbane is not really explored. If LA restored the land in a flawed manner, I wouldn't mind if it was a minor piece of the puzzle (minor in terms of what is explained in detail, not minor in terms of consequence). But I'd just be annoyed from a story perspective if her inability to restore the Land correctly is prominent.

I have a ton of questions about the time between the first and second Chrons... Was Mhoram right to forsake Kevin's Lore instead of forsaking the Oath of Peace? If they had stuck to Kevin's Lore, would they have recognized the ease of their success in restoring the Land, would they have seen Lord Foul coming? Or would they have been tricked as Kevin was, and just had another Desecration?

I wonder how aware Mhoram was of what was happening in the Land, and how his work had eventually been twisted into the Clave, and what he thought of it all.

[Furls Fire]

Awesome questions, Believer. Linden wasn't what made the new Staff of Law living, yet her human "flaws", which we all have, could have "flawed" the Land's healing. It will be really interesting to find out just how Foul restores himself this time. Could the flawed human healing of the Land open that door for him? The way I interpret the new Staff is that it is much more powerful then the old one. So, what did he do to circumvent the Staff and corrupt time? I know the Staff of Law has nothing to do with the Arch of Time, because the Arch exists beyond the Law. But, the Staff should have worked against Foul, in some way, from him regaining strength, because he is confined within the Land and so therefore, within the Law. I keep coming back to the Laws of Life and Death being broken. If the breaking of these Laws could bring Covenant back, could they not also play a part in bringing Foul back? And others as well? And, if Covenant IS the keystone now of the Arch of Time, will Foul corrupt him as well? And is that how the universe gets destroyed? I would hate to think that is how all this will end...the Evil prevailing. Yet, from what I am hearing...Covenant becomes Foul, so maybe, Foul is destroyed that way, which is what I tend to believe.

I too have often wondered how we went from the Lords to the Clave. In the Soothtell, it showed the Raver gaining control of the Council, the beginnings of the Banefire and Sunbane. But, how long was the time period? When did the Lords cease and the Clave begin? It had to have been a gradual process...one that took place long after Mhoram's death. The poisoning of the legends and history had to have taken quite a long time, long after those who remembered the way it truly was were dead, or very very few, like Nassic and his line of Unfettered. We know that 3,000 years pass in the Land between Covenant's visits...that's a mighty long time. So, I doubt Mhoram had any knowledge at all what would happen after abandoning Kevin's Lore. I really don't think Kevin's Lore would have stopped it anyway. This all came about by the destruction of the Staff of Law and the Earthpower being unprotected.

So many questions.

[Believer]

Whoops! I should clarify - my last question about how aware Mhoram was of what happened with the Council turning into the Clave, and such, was referring to dead Mhoram in Andelain. I wonder how aware he was of the outside world.

[Furls Fire]

I assume very aware. All the Dead seemed to know exactly what was going on when Covenant talked to them in Andelain. Elena told him where to find Foul. Mhoram told him he would have to leave the Land, but "the thing you seek is not what it appears to be...", etc. They all knew what was happening.

But, because the Law of Life had not yet been broken, all the Dead could do was sit back and watch in dismay what was happening.

Wow, think on this. With the Law of Life broken and the Dead now able to "act" of their own free well...what implications!! I can't even begin to imagine what that could possibly mean...