Did TC fail the High Wood test at Soaring Woodhelven?

[Tohrm]

Skyweir, when I assess the amount of insight that you possess, I am awestruck. You have seen many things that I felt, but could somehow not quite put into the proper words. Your eloquence astounds me and I am humbled.

[Skyweir]

.. umm .. thanks guys Tis me who is humbled Tohrm

I'm fascinated with SRD's exploration of contradiction/paradox, though I feel I haven't got to the bottom of it yet...

My thoughts precisely pitch!!

Braulio B .. I think that was the correct way to hold the rod .. and maybe it always appears moist .. or maybe it only appears moist to those who are unworthy or lacking something .. ??? .. or maybe thats just the way that wood looks *shrug*

[Tohrm]

I just remembered a line in the book that might also have some bearing on this matter. It was stated that the test of truth would only work if the one being tested did not surpass the tester. And it was proven at the end of the chrons that TC definitely surpassed all within the land as he was the only one with the insight, (or perhaps just luck ), to best LF.
Sure, he couldn't totally destroy him, for you can never truly destroy despite, but hew sure did put him in his place for a goodly amount of time.
And here is another little question that I am throwing out. (Hehehe I'm good at that) Does anybody have even the remotest idea how old the land is? The reason I am asking is I am trying to compare the land to our own world. At least in my mind, and I am trying to figure out if the land would be older or younger than our own.

[Davin]

I have no idea how old the Land is, but given the ratio I have seen used here (365 days to 1), I would think the Land is far younger than Earth. However, it all depends on how old you believe the Earth is.

[JD]

That was my point Torhm, Convenant did not fail the test since he surpassed Barakas. Just as Lord Foul passed the test when Kevin gave it to him. I took it that he dropped the wood because he really wasn't prepared to have it thrown to him, and his half hand had a part in it.

[JD]

That was my point Torhm, Convenant did not fail the test since he surpassed Barakas. Just as Lord Foul passed the test when Kevin gave it to him. I took it that he dropped the wood because he really wasn't prepared to have it thrown to him, and his half hand had a part in it.

[Skyweir]

I would be interested to see that propostion cited .. I think TC did not pass because he surpassed the tester .. in what way?? In power? Ofcourse he did .. as did Foul .. but Atiaran tells us Foul did not pass the test .. just that the lomillialor did not reject him .. I think this is not the same as passing the test of truth.

And if power is the only virtue compared between Barakas and TC .. TC wins hands down by possessing the white gold. I wonder if TC was compared to the tester by any other virtue .. if then also he would have surpassed Barakas .. after all he is the tester of truth .. an unworthy man surely could not fulfill this role.

In the older age, she said, 'when High Lord Kevin trusted the Grey Slayer, he was given pricelss gifts of orcrest and lomillialor. The tale says that these gifts were soon lost - but while the Grey Slayer possessed them they did not reject him. It is possible for Despite to wear the guise of truth. Perhaps the wild magic surpasses the truth.'

And if the wild magic surpasses the truth .. this doesnt mean the barer surpasses the tester .. it simply means that the one tested if he be like the Grey Slayer .. he can wear the guise of truth .. and yet not be true.

[Blackhawk]

hehe.. i dont think that was a fair test of truth.... someone throws something at you and judges you by your hand eye coordination..what if TC had really bad vision or his equivelent of glasses didnt make the trip? or he was born all thumbs or feet of clay and of course the white gold surpasses the test of truth but to pull a club after you play think fast with someone LOL. he should have just said repeat these words.>Melenkurion Abatha Duroc minos mill kabaal i think im missing one of the seven words but anyway i think that would have done the trick since no servant of foul would call on those words to save their life... i dont think he failed....he dropped the pass and may have felt unworthy considering he just raped lena and maybe the wood felt his recent evil and rejected him on that basis, it still wanted to reject him but the white gold that surpassed law bound it to him...like his deal with the Ranyhyn they had to come when he called but with fear and loathing. Baradakas test of truth was equivelent to the Ramen saying Jump on this Ranyhyn as it runs by and when he flops on his face them pulling spears on him. not quite but still an unexpected test that could surpass anyone who is not athetic or without good hand eye coordination. TC walked Leagues ..was very tired..then he got hog tied.. almost and pulled up about 19 floors/branches by his wrists..his hands were asleep and sore from the rope and harsh handling. i give him a C+ on that test. just a passing grade

[Krilly]

Good question!

I think some of you are looking at this scene too literally, calling up your understanding of the "rules" of the test but completely ignoring your understanding of the way SDR weaves metaphors into his stories.

In a way, Covenant dropping the staff BECAUSE of his half-hand is a symbolic way of failing the test. Can he be trusted? Can he even try to live up to someone as great as Berek (also a half-hand)?

That scene wasn't written as fluff or just to show (yet again) that wild magic > anything else. Ya gotta read for the meaning behind it.

[Fuzzy_Logic]

Nobody in the land has bad vision, blackhawk. If they did and it wasn't healed somehow, that would imply that the earthpower rejected them.

[Blackhawk]

Ultimately thomas covenant didnt fail the test, because he exceeded the tester and the object he was tested with, i would have to go back and read it again (and im about to) LFB so i can remember what i have forgotten. as far as vision and testing goes the Despiser was not a physical being after the desecration..and before the desecration he held a lords staff,what would a simple lomillialor test be for him, after all he huddled next to the earthpower after the dead laughed him into nothingness, saying it was the only thing that preserved him, the earthpower he hated most...and Kevin himself thought he was true, but for TCs test of truth, Baradakas had lived a simple life with Jehanums latest appearance being the most disturbing thing he had had to deal with in his long life of peace in the land..TC would have surpassed him simply due to the fact that he had been shunned by society and without simple human contact for so long that it made him like forged Iron, the creator had a hand in choosing him, so the white gold alone was not reason for his surpassing the tester. he kept proving things that would push a normal man to suicide or despair only made him stronger, Solitude and the venom and banefire melded with white gold.. even Findail thought he was going to die... even if TC had taken off his ring and had been wearing it under klingor before he met Foamfollower he would have been able to use the lomillialor to strike down Bardy...

I will look into those metaphors also.. I know that there are probably 10 lines of thought for every one line of speech in TCTC. I think thats why these books are so good.... when i was 14 I Loved these books because it was the best story i had ever read, and now they still are because he puts so much thought into his writing besides just the great storyline...its almost impossible to contain it all... and more is coming

[SoulBiter]

Inmy opinion he passed the test of truth. But the test wasnt when the lomillialor was throw to him when he wasnt ready. I think he truly just failed the 'think fast' test and didnt catch the rod. When he picks it up its mentioned that the rod is slick and oily as if it were trying to get out of his hands. I think thats when he is truly being tested and perhaps he would have failed but as I recall Baradakas just after TC doesnt catch the rod, trys to smack him with a club. Perhaps by trying to do unnecessary violence he violated his own 'oath of peace' and thus was no longer strong enough to sucessfully 'test' Covenant. Regardless I think the real test was after he had 'missed' catching the rod.

[Relayer]

The Oath of Peace didn't say not to ever be violent, it said not to let yourself get carried away by your emotions (example being Triock earlier in the book). I'd have to go back and re-read too but I believe Baradakas tried to strike TC because he fears he's another raver or something and is protecting himself, his woodhelven, and the Land. To me that doesn't violate the Oath.

[SoulBiter]

True it doesnt say to not be violent.

Do not hurt where holding is enough, do not wound where hurting is enough, do not maim where wounding is enough, do not kill where maiming is enough, the greatest warrior is he who does not have to kill.

Im assuming this all has to do with intent. Perhaps because of the slaughter that he had witnessed earlier, maybe he wasnt really in control of his emotions and was just ready to strike out. Thus breaking the oath. It seems to me as if he decides rather quickly to hit him with the club. He throws the rod at TC. TC misses and the next thing you know he is breaking out the club.

[Blackhawk]

The Oath of Peace didn't say not to ever be violent, it said not to let yourself get carried away by your emotions (example being Triock earlier in the book). I'd have to go back and re-read too but I believe Baradakas tried to strike TC because he fears he's another raver or something and is protecting himself, his woodhelven, and the Land. To me that doesn't violate the Oath.

true enough, dont hurt where holding is enough dont maim where hurting is enough and dont kill where maiming is enough......the high wood could have seen unworthiness in TC...but not enough to let him get his skull split, allowing him a temporary reprieve from its rejection?

hmmm...i think i also remember that hile troy In the Illearth War had held one of the lomillialor rods for a moment when the staff elders told him about a means of communication using them...i cant be 100% sure but I think it said when Hile Troy held the Lomillialor it felt as if it were alive like it wanted to slip out of his grasp.. but that could have been due to his own unworthiness, after all he killed the bloodguard watching over him.

[wayfriend]

I think it was the test that failed. Covenant surpassed it's ability to measure.

First he drops it. (Sorry, SB, but I think "thinking fast" is part of the test. That's why the rod was tossed to him.) Then he picks it up. Then he weilds it against it's owner.

It's not that only one of those outcomes count. They ALL count. But different answers are produced. Because the test is insufficient against Covenant.

This is part of the Save or Damn motif. The people of the land cannot test Covenant and see which way he will go, and thereby gain relief or fair warning. Covenant is at once both unsure (like a grip that is unsure) and strong (like a strong grip) and also dangerous (like an angry man with a big stick).

[SoulBiter]

First he drops it. (Sorry, SB, but I think "thinking fast" is part of the test. That's why the rod was tossed to him.) Then he picks it up. Then he weilds it against it's owner.

I cant buy that the 'think fast' is a portion of the test. Thinking fast when someone tosses you something unexpectedly all has to do with motor skills, manual dexterity, reaction time and having enough fingers. Using that as part of the test, you could get your head bashed in for being a clutz.

I think it was the test that failed. Covenant surpassed it's ability to measure.

Thats very possible but its also just as possible that TC surpassed Baradakas in some way.

[wayfriend]

I cant buy that the 'think fast' is a portion of the test. Thinking fast when someone tosses you something unexpectedly all has to do with motor skills, manual dexterity, reaction time and having enough fingers. Using that as part of the test, you could get your head bashed in for being a clutz.

Why, then, would Baradakas toss the rod to Covenant in that way, in effect ensuring that thinking fast is a component of the test?

Couldn't it be that a 'magical' ability to adhere to the high wood, despite adverse conditions, is how the test in fact reveals it's answer?

... but its also just as possible that TC surpassed Baradakas in some way.

The test is only as strong as the tester. Covenant surpassing the test is the same thing as Covenant surpassing the tester.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Tossing the wood at TC to make him "think fast" is actually the clearest part of the test for me.
It wasn't to make him be unable to grasp the high wood or even to make it more difficult to do so but to give him little time to use some kind of power (Kemper-like) or trick to bypass the test.

[SoulBiter]

Couldn't it be that a 'magical' ability to adhere to the high wood, despite adverse conditions, is how the test in fact reveals it's answer?

Perhaps...but we dont really know that and Ive found nothing that says that a staff made from high wood in anyway is easier to grasp than any other staff

It wasn't to make him be unable to grasp the high wood or even to make it more difficult to do so but to give him little time to use some kind of power (Kemper-like) or trick to bypass the test.

But if that was the case why did he immediatly try to smack TC with a club when he didnt catch it AND didnt try to use any power.