Covenant raping Lena

[jscottnelson]

Forgiving is difficult -- had he not been a leper and impotent, and thus so sure he was dreaming, I don't think the crime could have been forgiveable. I thought it was an extremely powerful scene in that it had been set up so well his situation -- and the power of the Land, the new senses assailing him -- I thought that scene worked incredibly well to give us a sense of how STRONG the Land was.

[spacemonkey]

Okay on this subject, yes i could forgive him,i mean look how he crucifies himself on the subject for so long,Thomas was still considering himself guilty after 10000 years in land had passed look at what he sacrificed in the end to pay for his guilt.Even when Lena died he still carried the crime with him.No matter what Thomas did after the fact that penance was almost the driving factor of his visits to Land afterward.Eventually he died paying for that sin so yes,forgiveness is there.Remember as well,Lena still wanted him after forty years and she may have been mad but she still wanted to be his bride..................

[surrender]

heres my idea of things ---> without it, we would have never truly understood the bitterness of the character. without that part, nothing wouldve made sense. i cant say that i wouldnt have forgiven TC, but i wouldnt hold it against him forever. he made a mistake, so what? hes human, so are we all, he was acting on an impulse, and that should ruin his life? without forgiveness, one cannot go on in life. hes beat himself up enough over it, he doesn't need everyone else beating him up too. this scene needs to be in the book no matter what because if it wasnt, the book wouldnt be the same.

-s-

[Rocksister]

This whole discussion brings to mind the extravagant sacrifices the people of the Land were willing to make for TC to succeed in the mission thrust upon him. It started with Lena's decision to not tell anyone what TC did, carried over to Atiaran's refusal to let Triock kill him (I wouldn't have let him either; I'd have wanted to do it myself), and snowballs on and on and on. TC keeps on needing to be forgiven for the most heinous things, and he is forgiven and tolerated every single time. The pressure of that ALONE should have driven him mad with the need to punish his own self. Could he have killed himself in the Land when his injuries in the "real world" were not life-threatening? I know, that's another topic.

[wayfriend]

Something interesting in the GI a while back:

Such "Covenant"-esque ideas as "innocence is impotence" and "only the guilty have power" are inferences drawn from the basic precepts of free will. They might be rephrased thus: only a person who has truly experienced the consequences of his/her own destructive actions is qualified to evaluate--is, indeed, capable of evaluating--his/her future actions in order to make meaningful choices between destruction and preservation. Hile Troy is an interesting example. He's "innocent" in a way that Covenant is not: he's never done anything even remotely comparable to the rape of Lena. As a result, he's bloody dangerous. He literally doesn't know what he's doing: he hasn't learned the kind of humility that comes from meeting his own inner Despiser face-to-face.
(7/13/2004)

It may not be one of the obvious things that comes to mind, but Covenant's rape of Lena is ultimately necessary for his victory over the Lord Foul. (Poor Lena!) By meeting his own inner Despiser, Covenant becomes the kind of person that understands the necessity of being reluctant to use power regardless of the apparent cost.

[Ur Dead]

Do any of you think that the raping of Lena can be forgiven?

If you reference the people of the Land, then yes he was forgiven and not forgiven. At first TC regretted the act but he didn't believe in the Land. Once he did believe, he sorely regretted it.
But he had to distance himself from it because "In his world" he was incapable of an act. He was still a leper in his world.

Or do any of you understand why he did it

He was thinking he was in a dream state at the time. He never could believe that his nerves in his body regenerated. He sudden having feelings like he had before contracting Hanson's disease. His new found feeling overwhelmed his mind conditioning he had to develop because of the disease.



and does the fact that Thomas thinks he's dreaming make a difference to this crime

Once he felt that he was stuck in the Land , his senses and his own personal convictions started to cause him to regret what he did. As the next two visits back to the Land, it caused him pain and regret. But he then knew what the Land was. He didn't know what it was about when he did the deed. The rape happen fairly quickly in the time he was called to the Land by Drool. He was confused to where he was. Places like the Land don't exist and suddenly he was called into being in that world. It later in the books that he knows that his real body(the one he occupies) is still back in it's reality, and his concious self and a body inhabits the world he is experiencing.

[Fuzzy_Logic]

I forgive Covenant. I just wish I didn't.

I happened upon the books at a very young age, and as such, didn't actually understand the rape scene when I came to it. That probably has something to do with it.

But after spending so many pages with Covenant, that one scene fades into teh distance and it becomes hard to get so worked up about it. In the second chronicles, SRD tries very hard to make you like Covenant, and he succeeds.

Still, rape of any kind is a horrific kind, and I'm not happy about the comments suggesting that this one wasn't so bad. The problem is that rape, like most violence agaisnt women, isn't taken seriously enough by our society.

I mostly get by by pretending that scene didn't happen, but it's still a problem for me.

[Fuzzy_Logic]

A normal human being put through what he went thru would have commited suicide or gone insane.

Not to be snide, but Thomas Covenant arguably does both....

[Rocksister]

I agree with UrDead. Covenant believed he was dreaming. He'd been given back something that was lost to him for years; I'm not a guy, but I'd guess (tentatively) that most guys would react pretty much like that, dreaming or not. Okay, I'm wearing my bulletproof vest, so fire away...

[The Leper Messiah]

I agree with you Rocksister, from the male perspective, this is the simple way to see this scene. I really enjoyed reading jwaneeta's posts also, she brings an interesting perspective. I, like many others have thought about and pulled apart this scene and looked at it from countless different angles. I have a strange perspective also, in that, I read 'The power that Preserves' befor I read 'Lord Fouls Bane'. (I can feel all of your collective shudders ) It was a trick (or a twist) of fate. So I knew Lena when she was older and saw the damage that had been done to her befor I ever read that scene. It gave me the ability to read it without shock or disgust because I knew it was comming. I also looked at Lena's actions leading up to the rape, with the benifit of hindsight. In all this talk of rape, I hardly here the name Lena, and yet of all the characters hers was affected the most. It is TC we concentrate on as he is the central character.

The scene was totally necessary. Sad but true. But I cant help but see Lena as the 'jessica rabbit' character. She was written to be raped. Its not her fault its just the way she's drawn. I think the fact that there is so much emotion tied up in, what amounts to a paragragh, shows that SRD wrote (or drew) her very well. When we compare this rape to others he has written, nothing has the affect that this one scene has, even though there is worse happening in some of his other books.

The fact that so many authors, male and female, include rape as a form of creating drama is, Im afraid, a sign of the times we live in. How far do we have to go now to find or see, visual representations of rape in our world. The internet is the bigest cache of all things porn, and yes its true (sad but true) that there are millions (yes millions Im afraid) of men and woman out there who have fantastical fantasy lives based around rape. (If you have ever studied any books about female sexual fantasies you will know that there are more than a few typical housewives out there who think about that very thing)

Of course you can always turn on the TV and watch music videos or the movie of the week and as long as the 'wrong bits' dont show you can pretty much represent anything violent. And dont get me started on video games.

In fact it makes me feel relieved that so many watchers react with such disgust, to this scene. Humanity survives on the watch. I hope that we never become so desensitized that we don't even react.

[The Dark Overlord]

I think you people are missing the whole point- the rape of Lena happened in conditions that CANNOT occur in real life/the real world. In those conditions rape could be understood(NOT forgiven or excused but understood).
Thomas Covenant more than anybody else had his existence rooted in reality- grim reality- not in that positive way that practical people
have their feet on the ground as opposed to irresponsible dreamers who have their heads in the clouds but as someone who was forced to face up to the horrific facts/reality of his existence. Everthing- every object/aspect/thing/condition/occurrence about his life/existence was (and HAD to be) evaluated as to if or how it would affect/relate to his life/leprosy. Every thought, every action was colored or affected by by his condition, or had to considered for ITS effect. Remember HOW relentless his life/training(to deal with the leperosy) had become? Remember how SRD wrote that the lectures were drilled into him over and over and then night after night Covenant dreamed the doctor's lectures in which even though there was no hatred or malice in the in the voice,tone, manner of speech or intent-the words were as black as hate. He would dream them and wake up DRENCHED in sweat NIGHT AFTER NIGHT. On top of the leperosy affecting EVERY aspect of his life like some other illnesses-but unlike most illnesses though- it cost him everything he held dear AND everything he took FOR GRANTED(when people lose everything/don't have much they value things they normally wouldn't and appreciate things they would normally take for granted- he didn't even have THAT). On top of all that the fear and hatred of all around him with no support- a complete outcast. A more desolate existence in the real world I can't imagine. SRD wrote that Covenant disdained and even strangled the imagination he had which had inspired his first novel and the subsequent manusript(which he burned). His life was held in a horrible grip of a visciously rigid ( but necessary) and relentless discipline and routine(with the constsant VSE'e and other rituals). He had NO ROOM for romantic thoughts of a cure or his past life or other types of fufilling lives/existences or even activities like bowling or shooting pool or mabey SOMEBODY ( anybody, even just some guy- a buddy) coming along and having compassion(he would have settled for pity) on him and just being his friend- just befriending him. ANY easing up on his grip/discipline/even thinking would have begun to destroy him( he was shown several examples at the leperosarium) and just torturing himself with these thoughts also might undo him/drive him mad. And he was ALREADY as close to madness as you can get.
So when Covenant found himself in this impossibly wild (or wildly impossible) place- the Land-he figured a "regular" complete breakdown was the BEST case scenario. It's very obvious where his rage and insantity come from. It's the LAST straw that even the one person who should never have betrayed him was doing so-HIMSELF. Covenant figured that this giving in to such "imagination" as the Land required was his subconscious either having a breakdown or worse(and more likely as Covenant was concerned) that subconsciously he couldn't take anymore and had given up and was subconsciously trying to commit suicide by "false hope and imagination" or was trying to give himself a "mercy killing"(like putting a dog to sleep- he would have been agreeing with a small minority that it would be merciful to end ANYBODY'S suffering/life in that condition- not EXACTLY a suicide) or- worst of all- that his subconscious was agreeing with the the majority of people that he was a blight on existence that needed to wiped out; that he was evil, unclean, immoral and was given the leperosy because of that- he had to be bad, sinful, and corrupt or he wouldn't have been punished like that. And even if he wasn't fudamentally corrupt/evil-just BEING a leper made him so. Even if he was fundamentally innocent- too bad- just being a leper MADE him guilty-and there was no room-could be no room-for compassion just like the presence of a fifteen foot alligator in your backyard in Florida is made evil by its very nature-it has no evil intent or no intent at all- but cannot be tolerated- there's no room for compassion when your dog and kids and wife might well be lunch(well mabey your wife) and this was (WRONGFULLY it might added) applied to Covenant's situation.
The fact that he was being betrayed(or convinced he was) by himself(and going crazy on top of it or that he was betraying himself by GOING crazy) was unbearable and the thing that made it intolerable and infuriating was that it might not have been him just subconsciosly giving up but- in the worst possible act of self betrayal- he subconsciously agreed with the worst of the people that he was fundamentally evil and he was trying to murder(not suicide) or wipe himself out because secrcetly he agreed with the majority's opinion/assessment of his CONDITION- not Him- his condition and that he actually agreed(subconsciously) that anybody in his condition SHOULD be exterminated at least out of pity or worse out of necessity and condemnation.
So that would make his rape of Lena a crazed attack of self defense on himself (in HIS mind,remember?in his mind none of this can possibly be real) and an attack on the thing he is using to attack himself-the dream of the Land-because now, unbelievably and outrageously he has to defend himself from himself . Everything, EVERYTHING, the healing most of all, the acceptance, the hero worship, the awakening senses and desires, the (ulta)vividness of the Land, the HYPED up senses(higher than normal after having been lower than normal), the outrageous sense of SELF- betrayal, it drove him MAD and the rape of Lena was his way of lashing out in rage(not against HER, against the tool of self betrayal-the dream), his way of self defense and his way of gaining control again- in his mind he wasn't attacking Lena, he really wasn't , he was attacking the dream that he was using to attack himself- that is how I see it. In the real world or real life there IS NO WAY to even UNDERSTAND rape let alone excuse it.[/b][/u][/i]

[paradox]

wait a minute... I was just struck by a thought... lena loved covenant and wanted to be his bride after 40 years... does that mean covenant has an especially large schlong? )

[The Dark Overlord]

Is that all you have to say after such a long statement? Do you realize we're discussing RAPE here??? There is no room for stupid and crude jokes especially when THAT is the subject.

[Loredoctor]

Is that all you have to say after such a long statement? Do you realize we're discussing RAPE here??? There is no room for stupid and crude jokes especially when THAT is the subject.

Calm down.

[paradox]

dude, lighten up... I am genuinely sorry if I have offended you, but the fact that you reacted so violently to what I have posted just opened up another thought in my head. If you thought that my joke was meant to disrespect you, that's your problem... because:

Rape is a situation which has to be dealt with by the individuals involved. If humour is a way that the victim uses to deal with rape then nobody has any right to reave them of the right to their own weapons. "joy is in the ears that hear"

How could anyone truly answer whether or not rape is unforgivable unless they were the ones in question? I for one believe that rape is unforgivable, but I cannot really say that to Lena if she chooses to laugh about it, right?

Rape is a tragedy which should be dealt with by the people involved. take a look at Lena: her actions showed that she chose to move on and forgive. Who can blame her? No one can truly erase the past and its effects but one can choose to learn from a mistake.

Rape may not be understandable, it may not even be excusable, but the point of this discussion is whether or not it is forgivable and there are only two people who can answer the question: the rapist and the victim.

Remember that the demand for absolute answers is always dangerous. Rape is not an Ultimate.. it is always relative. If stupid and crude jokes are a person's ways of dealing with it then you need to respect that.

[paradox]

I just realized that you only had two posts here, which indicates that the posts concerning rape and your reply to my post were the only posts you actually made.

Considering this, I really do apologize if you think that I disrespected your post. You obviously spent a lot of time and effort on writing your thoughts about this topic. judging from your CAPITALIZATION of various words, you must feel very passionate about it.


So I say: welcome to the watch! Hail and Be True!

[The Dark Overlord]

I would also like to add that none of this was preconceived by Covenant. He didn't stop and figure out things rationally and step by step like I did- they just built up (much of which he was not aware as building up) until he snapped. His attack on Lena wasn't a thought out strategy of self defense; he didn't say,calmly and rationally to himself, "Gee I'm turning against myself subconsciusly and this is what I have to do to stop myself from doing it or what I must do to counteract or fight myself if I can't get myself to stop attacking me." It just overwhelmed him all at once and he snapped and went mad.
One other thing, it seems that this horrible "failure" of Covenant actually snapped him out(somewhat) of the fog he was in and got him on his way. He needed it to anchor himself or get a grip on himself- he did monitor himself after that and keep himself in check- he was much more aware of his presence in the Land as an affecting thing-more aware that He had effects and consequences for the Land and its denizens or people- so he did watch his behavior after that, measured it , as opposed to the disregard he showed before the rape ( remember the "Forget it" he threw at Foul when he was brought to the Land the first time ). He was completely dismissive of the Land and Foul and all the people as being of any consequence before the rape. It was the rape that changed that. So it was a necessary vehicle on several levels

[paradox]

Covenant's rape of Lena, as said by Dark Overlord, indeed was the catalyst that made him realize that choices matter even in dreams.

It is mentioned after all, that his novels after the events of the 1st chrons consisted of explaining the power of guilt and how only the damned can be saved.

This is no excuse, however, as shown by the effects of the rape had on him. The fact that the rape is inexcusable is the same fact that enabled him to try and make up for it.

That is the eye of the paradox, my friends. There is hope in the contradiction.

It does not matter whether it is forgivable or not. Just as it didn't matter whether it was a dream or not. What matters is the fact that it drove Covenant to do the things that he did.

[Borillar26]

No I don't believe I could forgive Convenant either.

I sometimes wish Donaldson just leave that whole mess out. Iknow, I know, it's essential to the storyline. I've read most of the posted comments and I agree with them. But the rape scene is just too much.

Thomas Convenant is one of my favorite books of all time and I 'd like nothing more then to share it with everyone I know. The only thing that stops me is that scene. How do you get people to overlook that horrible ugliness and carry on with the books? For goodness sake it happens in book 1, within the first few chapters. I think that hurt the books popularity. It's such a beautifully written series, and is ten times better than most of the junk out there. I strongly beleive if it wasn't for that oh so taboo subject Thomas Convenant would be a household name.

So I guess what I like to know is: Convenant raping Lena, Donaldson's colossal blunder?

[Dirty Whirl]

I think any crime is forgivable, as long as the person pays for the crime and is truely repentant. haha, I sound like a church pastor or something, but thats what I believe. I think even the ravers could be forgiven, if they spent the rest of eternity trying to help out and fix things and doing good.
If a criminal isn't repentant, then well let him rot/hang/whatever. But if he does the time (in covenants case, considering the circumstances, I think he does make up for it) and repents for it then yes, he should be forgiven.
Would covenant ever forgive himself? I dont think so, but thats different haha.