Is the Land heaven/hell for Thomas Covenant & Hile Troy?

Post by **aTOMiC** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:24 pm

Given that they have both expired in the "Real" world would the Land not represent an afterlife for Covenant and Hile Troy? Another thought that had crossed my mind is: How many coma victims and unconscious “Real World” people are represented in the form of characters in the Land? Is Lord Foul just a demented computer programmer that has lapsed into a coma after indulging in too much Quake III? Just kidding with the Foul comment.

Post by **Nav** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:02 am

Bearing in mind that Covenant only sustained minor injury on his first two visits to The Land, and was very much alive in the 'real' world during his time there I'd say it is unlikely that it represents an afterlife for him personally.

As for other characters, who knows. It'd be nice to think that people who die in this world are reborn in The Land.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:38 am

Though TC did visit the land prior to dying in the real world, he did eventually die. In the context of the story he is for all intents and purposes dead in the real world. He does however seem to continue to exist in some form in the land as the guardian of the AOT. I'd call that life after death.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:01 am

SRD said this in a chat session some years back...

I already have all the ideas for the grand scheme so the second chronicles is ready for the last chronicles. The damage to the law of death is so powerful that there is no real reason for Covenant to remain dead.

.

He also said this...

One of the functions the second series was to move it past whether it was real or not. What is important is the emotional value and once you accept that Covenant fights, that is resolved. Linden Avery questioned Lord Foul, but not the land itself. That is her take and I do not intend to recapitulate this. We will not spend the third chronicles debating that.

My take on this is that we will no longer question what is real, what isn't real. We will no longer question whether Covenant is alive or dead, he will just "be". Donaldson's first comment leads me to believe that Covenant will exist as some "higher form"..neither mortal or immortal, somewhere in between. As the keystone to the AoT. Foul is neither "alive" or "dead" either. For Covenant to become Foul it would seem to me that they would need to be on "common ground" so to speak.

I think I'm sliding off the mark on the title of this thread. "Afterlife", yes, I can see the Land as being some form of "afterlife"...but remember, Hile Troy as Caer-Caveral was slain in WGW to break the Law of Life by bringing Hollian and her baby back from the dead. So, he is no longer "alive" in either world.

Post by **Elwyn** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 6:54 am

Figuratively speaking, I'd say that the land represented a sort of hell for Covenant, because in it he had perfect health and he feared becoming too used to that and thus lose the habits he needed just to stay alive as a leper in his own world. In the same token, Hile Troy looked at the land as being much more positive (but still not as heaven because heaven is a perfect place with no evil and no pain) because he had sight, albeit a different kind of sight, while he was in the land; but he was also dead in his own world, so the land was the only world left to him.

I don't view the land as an afterlife. I look at it more as a parallel universe or another dimension separate from our world, but definitely NOT an afterlife. I don't think it was meant to be viewed as such.

Post by **Tulizar** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 6:59 am

I never really considered the Land as an Afterlife. Not Heaven, not Hell. It's more like another place for people to live/exist. TC, LA and Troy all existed in both places simultaneously. When TC and Troy died in our world, they simply continued living in the Land. Who knows what happens when they die in the Land. Onto Heaven or Hell? Maybe.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:12 am

Just how long would Covenant and Troy have to exist in the Land before their existence would constitute life after death? I’m just having fun with this concept. Fictional characters need not be required to find the path to true salvation. They are perfectly welcome to remain in suspended existence for all time. I’m not concerned that Luke Skywalker is forever and for all time standing in the forests of Endor undying and unable to attain eternal happiness. What is more fun to think about is the idea that if I suddenly smack my head on my keyboard while leaning over to tie my shoes that I could conceivably wake up on Kevin’s Watch. Is it just a coincidence that my given name is Thomas Cummins?A little too close to the real TC don't you think. Hmmmmm…:-)

Post by **Forestal** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:22 am

law of death... never really thought about it before... if death dont matter every1s alive... man that would b such a cool fight.... sorry... bit wasted tonight.... its like wow...

[edit: oops...]

heaven/hell to the land? thats easy... its not heaven and its not hell, its a big mixture of both, more of another dimention really. which actually kinda works with all the magic and trippy stuff that goes on there... in my head....

IT WORKS FOR ME, ALRIGHT??!!

:p

Post by **CovenantJr** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:22 pm

clearfrontier wrote:What is more fun to think about is the idea that if I suddenly smack my head on my keyboard while leaning over to tie my shoes that I could conceivably wake up on Kevin’s Watch

It'd be nice to settle back on a comfy bed, pay someone to bring food etc at appropriate intervals, close your eyes and be summoned...

Post by **Tulizar** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:53 pm

clearfrontier wrote:What is more fun to think about is the idea that if I suddenly smack my head on my keyboard while leaning over to tie my shoes that I could conceivably wake up on Kevin’s Watch. Is it just a coincidence that my given name is Thomas Cummins?A little too close to the real TC don't you think. Hmmmmm…

Good God man, step away from that keyboard immediately! (But if you do happen to wake up on KW, let me know what it's like. Please...)

CovenantJr wrote:It'd be nice to settle back on a comfy bed, pay someone to bring food etc at appropriate intervals, close your eyes and be summoned...

Now that's Heaven!

Post by **Landwaster** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:30 pm

Now my head hurts.

sesusan · Post by **sesusan** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 6:00 am

Something else to think about is weather Hile Troy was somewhere in the real (our) world still in a coma for 10 years while in the Land he continued to be the Forestal. When he died as the Forestal he then finally died in the real world. TC did the same thing. His last bits of life were probably slipping from him in the real world when he gave the ring to Lord Foul. Thus they die in our world at the same time they die in the Land. This thought would make the Land an alternate dimension not Heaven or Hell.

Now, however, the law of death is broken. The characters will live for eternity. Perhaps it will take on a more Heaven/Hell feel to it depending on the individual character's perspective. I think I read something about the next books being before the first book. Maybe the idea is to have the Land be Heaven after TC beat Lord Foul and take other stories from before he arived.

Of course for this to happen we would have to ignore SD's quote about the broken law of death being an important part of the next book. Unless.....the law of death would have ended the world and set the Wurm in the center of the earth free but with that law being broken it will continue on with the Wurm in slumber and time in a loop.

Sorry about the rambling but thoughts just kept spilling out.

Post by **Romeo** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 6:37 am

I don't think it's either. Except for Lucifer, I never heard of anyone being kicked out of heaven - or saved from hell.

If the comparison must be made, then I'd say the Land is more like purgatory. People are saved and damned (not physically, but spiritually) by their actions and decisions there.

Post by **Ur-Chico** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 6:46 pm

In the First Chrons...Heaven, and it is turned to Hell in the Second.

Post by **Seafoam Understone** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:06 pm

Ur-Chico wrote:In the First Chrons...Heaven, and it is turned to Hell in the Second.

Ah yes true, but thanks to LA's healing the Land is once again Heaven.

Post by **Forestal** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 8:41 am

its not the same tho... its more like heaven with all the angel's wingless... ya know?

Post by **Skyweir** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 6:40 pm

yes I am going with the heaven option ..

intriguing thought the land being an after-life .. but it probably couldnt be .. cos LA visited and left .. and no doubt may visit again in the 3rd chrons.

and if it is an after-life is it only an after-life for those who depart our world? cos if so where did Atiaran go?

can you escape the alleged after-life Land by misummoning and trading places with folk in our world?

lol

nice theory .. but .. mmm

Post by **Gil galad** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 8:05 pm

I think its the paradox device again and the land is heaven and hell simultaneously for them

Post by **Forestal** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 7:22 am

yeah, that sounds more reasonable... but to me the land was always a paradise...

god i hate that sunbane..... oh the forests

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:35 pm

Gil galad wrote:I think its the paradox device again and the land is heaven and hell simultaneously for them

Interesting. Heaven and Hell are the same place however one man's Hell is another man's Heaven.

Eternal torment or eternal bliss based solely on one's point of view.

I'm sure it's not an original notion but it is interesting.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Is the Land heaven/hell for Thomas Covenant & Hile Troy?

Is the Land heaven/hell for Thomas Covenant & Hile Troy?

woah man.. thats like opened so many windows ...

heaven/hell