Cail and Jenn's chapter discussion

[Cameraman Jenn]

Ok, I guess i will start...what part of chapter one made you realize how much you dislike Linden? Was it when she instinctively disliked and distrusted Roger? Was it the part about her intuitively realizing that Roger Covenant is a looney tune and NOT simply giving him the ring? Was it her refusal to simply give over custody of Joan to the obviously crazy Roger? Was it her reflection about her car? and how she couldn't let go because it was her last tangible connection to her love of Thomas Covenant? Was it her motivation without profit to help to build a hospital to help Joan and the other victims of the last chrons...? Cail, I totally went all aggro and I apologize in advance...but I couldn't think of any reason why you would hate LA as she is written in the first chapter...

[Seareach]

This is going to be fun! Can't wait for Cail's response/take on it!

[spacemonkey]

I don't dislike Linden Avery at all.....She is the other side of Thomas Covenant's balance. The whole Yin/Yang thing. For every thing there is balance. LA represents the balance of TC's madness in the Land. LA is the educated, collected one when things get a little out there. Sorry, CJ, I'm a Linden Lover. She's rather pivotal to the whole story line and I think that SRD will show just HOW important she really is later. I honestly believe that she and TC will more than likely end up smooching eternity away in the AOT. Well, then again, I'm a hopeless romantic anyways, my opinion may be contaminated by "mushy" stuff.....

[Cameraman Jenn]

Ok, let me state one thing right now..I love Linden Avery. I think she is a darn strong charactor. I was posting for Cail's benefit, to question and defend his dislike of Linden..

[spacemonkey]

Ah, so it becomes like the Glimmermere, I guess everyone has a right tolike or dislike a character, I can also guess his(one of them at any rate) complaint may be that this is supposed to be the Last Chronicles Of Thomas Covenant not Linden Avery....or something along those lines, but that just guessing.....

[Cameraman Jenn]

ok, based on her behavior and or actions, in the first chapter of ROTE, give me a viable concrete reason to hate Linden...

[Fist and Faith]

I didn't remember Cail hates Linden. Good for him! But has he said that his hate is based on chapter one of ROTE?

[Cail]

OK. Chapter one, it seems to me, was primarily a vehicle to introduce a new character (Roger) and demonstrate that the boy just ain't right. In that, it does well. Ten years after the last time we've seen Joan, we know Joan's still a whack job.

And then we get to Linden......

The woman who spent months with TC on the Giant Love Boat. The woman who braved TC's comatose state to bring him back to awareness. The woman who saved the frickin' LAND and OUR WORLD from the Sunbane and Lord Foul.

And she's still the same self-doubting, tenative woman she was ten years ago. Roger Covenant manipulates her like she was a child, and she does nothing about it. Now true, she doesn't hand Joan over to Roger, but she allows the conversation to go on waaay to long.

This actually is one of the larger issues I remember having with Runes the first time I read it. Linden's character hasn't really developed since we last saw her. I have a hard time swallowing that.

[Spam]

OK. Chapter one, it seems to me, was primarily a vehicle to introduce a new character (Roger) and demonstrate that the boy just ain't right. In that, it does well. Ten years after the last time we've seen Joan, we know Joan's still a whack job.

And then we get to Linden......

The woman who spent months with TC on the Giant Love Boat. The woman who braved TC's comatose state to bring him back to awareness. The woman who saved the frickin' LAND and OUR WORLD from the Sunbane and Lord Foul.

And she's still the same self-doubting, tenative woman she was ten years ago. Roger Covenant manipulates her like she was a child, and she does nothing about it. Now true, she doesn't hand Joan over to Roger, but she allows the conversation to go on waaay to long.

This actually is one of the larger issues I remember having with Runes the first time I read it. Linden's character hasn't really developed since we last saw her. I have a hard time swallowing that.

I can condense all that into two words while also including the pages of evidence you left out:Linden Sucks.

[danlo]

So do you only pop onto the board just to say things like that?

Seems to me she's learned alot about managing the human condition. Sure she's selfdoubting. Are we to measure this vs. Thomas' changes on our World inbetween summonsings? I don't think she ever thought she'd return to the Land. When Roger confronts her she begins giving way, I believe, on purpose-emotional akido. When, all of a sudden, your normal way of life is ripped out from under you the smartest thing is to bend. I think it's very cool-some guys have a hard time seeing this work in a woman...

[Cail]

OK, but wouldn't you think that spending months in a fantastical land with Giants, Sandgorgons, posessed snakes and bees, the Sunbane, the Clave, and all that stuff, then finding out that you're the most important person in that world....Don't you think that might change your outlook on life just a bit?

[danlo]

Not when you get back to this hard, unforgiving world where she'd become a patient in her own facility if she tryed to tell someone anything about the Land. I think it changed her outlook on love (there is also that in the world), as we see later, but hellfire Covenant retained some of his bad habits too (why do I think of House all of a sudden?).

[Cameraman Jenn]

I don't think she is the same person she was. I think she's more compassionate which is why she lets Roger stay as long as she does and she lets him see Joan for that reason as well as to help him to see the actual situation with Joan. I don't think that the Linden of the second chronicles would have treated Joan with such gentleness and caring, she certainly wouldn't have put flowers in her room.

[Cail]

Well on the one hand, Linden is a doctor, so one would assume she's got a fair amount of built-in (or learned) compassion. If anything, I'd expect Linden to be a bit hasrher towards Joan since she (Linden) was in love with Covenant and it was quite plain that Covenant was still in love with Joan at the time of the Second Chrons.

And I don't see her actions towards Roger as compassionate either. It seems like she's........Mesmerized (not the word I want to use, but it's all I can come up with at the moment) by him, as though he holds some sort of power over her.

[Creator]

... she's more compassionate which is why she lets Roger stay as long as she does and she lets him see Joan for that reason as well ...

pg 21.

Surely he would leave when he had seen his mother?

Does that sound like compassion!!? She thought Joan's condition would scare the crap out of him and he would leave!!

[Cail]

Good point Creator.

Just like Bobby Boucher's Mama said, wimin is 'da debil!

[danlo]

When I look back on Linden, as a Dr., there was something a bit cold and dispassionate, about the way she treated her patients. As if they were vessels of atonement in a way--but oddly enough that guilt seemed to come more from her father. She appears, at least to me, much more compassionate to her psychiatric patients, in general.

Surely he would leave when he had seen his mother?

on the other hand she could have been saying, "...there's always trouble when Covenants intercede, any Covenant."

[Creator]

LOL.

I also found her attitude toward Roger - before he went psycho ... annoying. Why wouldn't it be normal for a son to want to take care of his mother.

While checking the condition of Haven Farm should have been a required condition of release ... I found Linden's ... reaction ... inappropriate. Now, his behaviour with his mother was ... weird ... reason enough to be stand-offish.

BUT, he did reach her. I would have expected her to schedule a FUTHER session for discussion. Why wasn't she at least glad that SOMEONE has reached Joan?

NOPE, I am NOT impressed with the way Linden has grown.

Good think I don't have to LIKE her to enjoy (immensely) SRD's story!! lol

[lucimay]

LOL.

I also found her attitude toward Roger - before he went psycho ... annoying. Why wouldn't it be normal for a son to want to take care of his mother.

leave your mother issues out of it Creator. Roger exudes danger. he is instantly wrong. like being around Pieten (or how ever you spell that).
Linden's attitude had nothing to do with the normalcy of the situation you imply. she is sensitive to wrong. it's one of the reasons she's the chosen.

While checking the condition of Haven Farm should have been a required condition of release ... I found Linden's ... reaction ... inappropriate. Now, his behaviour with his mother was ... weird ... reason enough to be stand-offish.

thank you. decidedly weird. her reaction to Roger IS appropriate given his obvious wrongness. he's twice the bast*rd his father ever thought about being.

BUT, he did reach her. I would have expected her to schedule a FUTHER session for discussion. Why wasn't she at least glad that SOMEONE has reached Joan?

in a normal situation you would expect that. it's clear from the outset this is NOT a normal situation. i felt her reactions a bit slow on the uptake myself. she didn't want to be seeing what she was seeing. it slows her.

NOPE, I am NOT impressed with the way Linden has grown.

i'm witholding judgement. i am in THOOLAH you know. still. i have now read more Donaldson female characters and have more faith in Linden than i did before i met women like Min Donner, Sorus Chantelaine, and Morn Hyland. i'm glad of this thread. feels like a bit of intervention for my Linden angst.

Good think I don't have to LIKE her to enjoy (immensely) SRD's story!! lol

no. you don't. but you do have to understand her function in the story to make sense of her direction and what she might do next.
if hero = TC, then helper = Linden.
if -TC, then Linden = hero.
thats the only thing that makes sense.
if Linden = hero, what kind of hero is she.
well...she's superior in kind to other men(or women) and, while in the land, superior to the enviroment (health sense). in the land, she is a god(ess).
thus will all her action come from her functionality in the story.
it is why i hold out hope that i will eventually NOT be a THOOLAH member.
i want to see the whole arc of her character before deciding.

once again...Cjenn and Cail, good thread.

[Creator]

LOL.

I also found her attitude toward Roger - before he went psycho ... annoying. Why wouldn't it be normal for a son to want to take care of his mother.

leave your mother issues out of it Creator. Roger exudes danger. he is instantly wrong. like being around Pieten (or how ever you spell that).
Linden's attitude had nothing to do with the normalcy of the situation you imply. she is sensitive to wrong. it's one of the reasons she's the chosen.

While checking the condition of Haven Farm should have been a required condition of release ... I found Linden's ... reaction ... inappropriate. Now, his behaviour with his mother was ... weird ... reason enough to be stand-offish.

thank you. decidedly weird. her reaction to Roger IS appropriate given his obvious wrongness. he's twice the bast*rd his father ever thought about being.

BUT, he did reach her. I would have expected her to schedule a FUTHER session for discussion. Why wasn't she at least glad that SOMEONE has reached Joan?

in a normal situation you would expect that. it's clear from the outset this is NOT a normal situation. i felt her reactions a bit slow on the uptake myself. she didn't want to be seeing what she was seeing. it slows her.

NOPE, I am NOT impressed with the way Linden has grown.

i'm witholding judgement. i am in THOOLAH you know. still. i have now read more Donaldson female characters and have more faith in Linden than i did before i met women like Min Donner, Sorus Chantelaine, and Morn Hyland. i'm glad of this thread. feels like a bit of intervention for my Linden angst.

Good think I don't have to LIKE her to enjoy (immensely) SRD's story!! lol

no. you don't. but you do have to understand her function in the story to make sense of her direction and what she might do next.
if hero = TC, then helper = Linden.
if -TC, then Linden = hero.
thats the only thing that makes sense.
if Linden = hero, what kind of hero is she.
well...she's superior in kind to other men(or women) and, while in the land, superior to the enviroment (health sense). in the land, she is a god(ess).
thus will all her action come from her functionality in the story.
it is why i hold out hope that i will eventually NOT be a THOOLAH member.
i want to see the whole arc of her character before deciding.

once again...Cjenn and Cail, good thread.

But she whines about this ... and cry's about that! I sometimes want to slap her ... she's soooo ... soooo .... JUST SOOO!! For a woman hero, give me seygourney (sp) weaver in Aliens or Linda Hamilton in Terminator or GI Jane ... those women knew how to take care of adversity!! Hell, give me the FIRST of the Search!! Or even Linden if TCTC 2 - this one is ... toooo whining and crying....

Your kid is in trouble ... deal with it like in Aliens - best movie line ever .... "Get away from her .... BITCH!!" Now that's a woman!!