Elena-when she was alive how much did Despite influence her?

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:53 pm

When she was alive, did Despite influence everything Elena daughter of Lena and Covenant do. Her summoning of Kevin. Her love for Covenant? Whaddya think?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Sep 29, 2002 10:45 pm

this is saltheart foamfollower

Well, I think its a good question, though I think it was despite itself which messed her up even from pregnancy.
Foul is/was a very good badguy, who was a master at minipulation and calculation. They both predicted what would happen to TC when he entered the land. Im sure foul must had had something to do w/ lena.
the fact is that I think its strange how she loved TC so much and HATED foul with so much passion.maybe she thought that it was fouls fault for driving her mother mad. I think that she thought that, plus the whole horse slaughter incedent must have made her even angrier.
IF you think about it, TC was like Elena, they both were good and evil. THe only real difference is that she thought her passion as good, and TC though his passion as fake (which in turn is evil).
to conclude my post I want to remind you something. Remeber Triocks last words? "...She was flawed from birth"
THat really deep, and may explain alot of your question.

p.s-- I know its hard to make topics about TC so I applaud your success!

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 12:25 am

Im sorry, I dont exactly have an encore ready...but Triock was wise to have said that....

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 2:02 am

I think she managed to do as much damage to the Land as Foul had. Breaking the Law of Death, setting up the situation for the breaking of the Staff of Law, lusting after her father, she is one very messed up person. The one thing that always struck me about her is that she doesn't seem to be in quite the same world that everyone else walks in. Like when she summons TC to the Land. Here he is, bleeding like a stuck pig, drunk, angry, and confused -- Bannor has just saved his life by keeping him from falling into the fire! And what does she do? Does she show any concern at all? No, until TC starts screaming at her she just blabs on and on and on in her little prepared speech. She's just a freak. And, yes, I'm sure that Despite and Foul have been playing with her mind since conception (not just birth).

Post by **Rockbrother** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 12:14 pm

I don't agree that Elena was evil or that she was influenced by Foul directly. I think everyone was indirectly manipulated by Foul and the smart ones knew that. Witness the lords being forced to rescue the staff from Drool. They had no choice but they understood they were aiding Foul just as much as they aided themselves.

I see Elena as Covenant without the restraint Leprosy imposed upon him. If Covenant himself is wild magic, then as his daughter, so is Elena. That's why she's so dangerous, with the power to save or damn the world.

But she had neither his abhorrence of false hope or his insight into the ultimate fraility of power. She used power she did not understand because she did not realize that any amount of power, in and of itself, is ever enough. Covenant understood despair and respected it. Elena believed it was just another foe to conquer.

Nor did she understand that giving in to despair, even for a moment, makes you weaker, not stronger. That's why she summoned Kevin, thinking he would have learned from his earlier defeat.

I always thought Elena was the saddest figure in the Land.

Post by **Skyweir** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:55 pm

Hail Rockbrother .. hail and well met!!

I agree!! I also dont see Elena as an evil .. more misguided .. She was driven by her passion for the Land .. but that passion was not channelled nor given 'structure' [that SRD claims is requisite] .. so it was a force that even her good sense wasnt able to control ..

She was tunnel visioned because of it .. even though her intentions were to serve the Land ..

She was not a High Lord for nothing .. sure she was chosen because of whom her father was .. but she had her purpose .. and was gifted .. look at the marrow-meld ..

.. and you are right Rockbrother .. most were manipulated by Foul and obtaining the staff from Drool is a perfect example of this ..

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:35 pm

Be welcome, Rockbrother, welcome and true!
Im going to have to agree w/ SHFF about this. Your example of Drool, Rockbro, is a good one, but I think it different from HLE. This raises an interesting question, was Elenas ENTIRE life influenced by the Despiser. I might have to say yes. Some evidence? Her birth was definitely the result of Foul playing w/Covenants mind. Her idiocy in summoning HLK in Earthroot maybe was also influenced by the Despiser. But, she DEFINITELY isnt evil.

Post by **Rockbrother** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 2:08 am

Much thanks for the warm welcome.

All this talk about Foul's influence made me wonder just how far back that went. For example, when Foul was part of the council, did he aid the old lords in gaining the level of power they achieved? Which in turn led to Kevin's ability to invoke the Ritual? Which in turn led to the loss of the Staff, on and on to the white gold's appearance in the Land?

Perhaps only Donaldson knows?

I also started wondering just how much of what Elena did was not because of any manipulation, direct or not, by Foul but by the fact that she was the WGW's daughter. Now there's some big shoes to follow. Maybe she felt that her blood made her immune to human frailities.

Post by **Hile Troy** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 2:12 am

Gosh, so many excellent points already posted. IMHO, Elena was never evil. Misguided? Yes. Yet she was pushed far beyond her Lordly abilities and good judgement. Elena is the most tragic figure in the any of the Chronicles books. Young and inexperienced, forced to make monumental choices and sacrifices. The weight of the Land was literally laid upon her shoulders throughout TIW. Unfortunately Elena folded under the pressure. And yes, I believe LF's corruptions were always present in Elena's life too.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 2:59 am

Lord Foul's manipulations were present in everybodies lives .. the main characters anyway ..

I never hated Elena .. I too felt her character was a tragic character .. I admire her desire to serve the Land .. sadly her desire was not balanced with her ability .. I think she may well have believed that she were immune to the frailties of mortality .. I think that is a very valid point ..being the offspring of the white gold wielder .. may have given her a false sense of supremity.

She was nevertheless a valued High Lord .. she had come to that position very young .. and did place upon herself the weight of the Land upon her shoulders .. well not really .. it was by and large placed upon her by virtue of her being called as High Lord in the midst of the Illearth War .. She had no choice but to address the needs of the Land ..

I think LF did mess with her mind .. she became consumed with this idea of raising High Lord Kevin .. she bought right into his machinations .. but as Rockbrother said .. so did the Lords in LFB when they were forced to rescue the staff from Drool Rockworm.

Post by **variol son** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:06 am

the thing that always made me suspicious was the horse rite of kelenbrabanal. sure the ranyhyn promised 2 go 2 lena, but nothing in the promises that they made 2 TC mentioned taking elena 2 the horse rite. i believe they tried 2 use her 2 strike @ LF. They saw her potential, the fact that she was the ringthanes daughter, but not dangerous @ them in any way, & available 2 b used. i always found it strange how she called TC ringthane as opposed 2 white gold wielder like all the other lords did, & i think the 'otherness' in her gaze was something that the ranyhyn planted in her. it is mentioned that they loved kevin, & that could explain her strange preoccupation with him.

duchess of malfi · Post by **duchess of malfi** » Mon Oct 07, 2002 1:17 am

I recently read some books of Russian mythology and i wonder if Donaldson possibly got the idea of Elena from one of them. In the myth of the firebird there is a beautiful and powerful princess named Elena. At the end of the story she comes under the influence of dark magic and betrays everything and everyone she loves the most. In one version of the myth that I read she does this because she sort of shallow and selfish, but in the other, and more appropriate one, she means well and her betrayal is inadvertant (and also repaired when the dark magic is vanquished). Donaldson's Elena betrays the Land, but I don't think that she herself is an evil person. I think that Foul has been working on her most of her life. Doesn't he say right in the message to the Lords that he will hold the power of life and death in his hand before 42 years go by? This is a clear reference to Elena and the very, very, very bad thing that she comes to do when she calls Kevin from his grave. Foul somehow knows (and plans, I think) about what is going to happen.

Post by **danlo** » Mon Oct 07, 2002 9:23 pm

I agree w/Rockbro...Sky and Duchess! Part of Lena's madness has 2 a result of Foul's visits, at least in her dreams. Where does Triock figure in2 this--was his anger manipulated by Foul in Elena's upbringing? And here I'm NOT argueing: I just want 2 kno where (out of curiosity) exactly in TIW does it say she (first) made it known 2 the Loresraat (or the Lords) that she was TC's daughter?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Oct 07, 2002 9:42 pm

I don't think we ever find that out! Maybe High Lord Osondrea sent someone from Revelstone to talk to Atiaran about TC and it was found out then?? Maybe no one knew until Elena showed up at Revelwood?? I don't think that the books ever say.

Post by **CovenantJr** » Mon Oct 07, 2002 10:07 pm

I think the Council knew for a long time. After all, it would be hard for Elena to keep that from her fellow Lords during that mind-melding thing they do...

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:47 am

That Russian myth is very interesting...it sounds a lot like Elena. Danlos right, maybe Foul was in her dreams...maybe it ran deeper then that...we can definitely rule out the possibility of a Raver, a) he wouldnt trust them and b) wed know right away. I definitely think her birth was the Despisers doing...were her actions??

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Oct 08, 2002 8:55 am

interesting question danlo .. where does Elena make it known that she is TC's daughter?? Well a lot of people already know about the rape of Lena .. Atiaran .. and later Mhoram learns .. Trell and Triock and actually quite a lot of people eventually became privy to this knowlege ..

And Lena returns home pregnant or something and is cared for by Triock .. and then the Raynhin visit each year .. be hard to explain that connection even .. infact it may have become relatively common knowledge ..

Hile Troy seems to be one of the few not privy to it all ..

But come what may .. I dont know how far you can take the ill of LF .. is Foul really responsible for the actions of TC? maybe some he is? but the rape of Lena .. that to me wasnt Foul's doing .. it was all TC .. all the way!

Even if you have the mind that Foul manipulated that event .. or tempted him .. who was it that succumbed to the temptation?? .. and committed the act? I dont buy that though! ..

TC had his reasons for doing what he did .. and he didnt need any intervention from Foul to fulfill them .. He believed he was in a dream .. he recovered some sensation .. felt the sting of arousal and the rest is history .. He didnt believe it was real .. how could it be??

TC entertained a fantasy .. did Foul put that fantasy there?? .. maybe .. but we saw how TC reacted to seeing heaving breasts of the young girls in his home town .. Presumably that was TC the man .. the slighted man at that ..

I think we cant attach all ill to Foul .. just like you cant attach all ill to Satan .. we are all capable of committing ill .. and knowing what it is when we do it .. we go into most things eyes wide open .. Ulitimately the buck has got to stop somewhere .. and personal responsibility is not often a place we want to asign it.

Elena wasnt evil imo .. she wasnt possessed by a raver .. that would have been too obvious an ill .. and SRD gives no indication that such an ill is connected to the High Lord.

She was misguided .. she wants to serve and save the Land from Foul ..

her intents were pure .. prior to summoning Kevin she crys aloud;

Melenkurion abatha!Ward yourself well, FAngthane! I seek to destroy you!

Post by **danlo** » Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:00 pm

I have 2 agree VEHEMENTLY w/Sky!!! The crux of the whole Series (IMHO) hinges on the rape. It sets up the essential dillema of whether The Land is real or not. If TC's conscience didn't react in at least some semblance what would be the point of the books? What has he done? Has he done something? Is he free 2 roam and do anything he wishes in this "dream" or not. If he cannot control the wild magic either the answer is no or it exists on a much deeper emotional, mental and spiritual level. In the annuals or our world such a thing has never been documented (even from the dreams of men), save prophesy or "miracles" enacted by Jesus Christ. While I will not totally rule out Foul in this situation or put 100% of the blame on TC mayb we can consider looking at it this way: Enuf major stuff is already going on in TC's head--many a lesser man (woman) couldn't handle 60% of it w/out turning in2 an incapcitated, drooling, lunatic. TC begins 2 be "healed" by hurtloam (but everything has it's price, doesn't it?) and this healing fires EVERYTHING in his being, you name it...he goes from the depths of despair, loneliness, numbness, thoughts of suicide and emotional, spiritual and mental bankruptcy 2 wonderful heights, just like that. While hurtloam is a beautiful, amazing, magical thing-like a drug it can trigger a MAJOR manic episode (especially 2 some1 in TC's condition) that even the strongest person in the Universe couldn't handle.

Post by **aliantha** » Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:56 pm

I don't consider Elena to be evil, either, and I don't know that you can blame her existence on Foul. I don't know that anyone could have foreseen that hurtloam would cure TC's leprosy to the point that he would haul off and rape Lena. Maybe not even the Creator could have seen that coming.

Foul certainly was not above using the rape to his advantage, but that's not the same as engineering the situation so that Covenant's libido reawakens at the moment that he's alone with a pretty 16-year-old girl, creating a pregnancy that drives the girl mad. I mean, there's no direct evidence that Foul did that. That's the sort of thing that he would point out to TC: "I hand-picked that girl for you, and I was right there, banging her with you, to make sure that her daughter -- your daughter -- would grow up to serve my evil purpose! (hysterical laughter)"

Say -- if Foul came to see Elena in her dreams, what if he came to see Roger in *his* dreams, too?

Post by **Earthblood** » Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:35 pm

Just finished TIW. I also don't think Elean was evil, but I do think she was at least seeking revenge, if not acting out of despite. I don't mean under the direct mechanations of LF, but when she describes her night & day w/Ranyhyn, she tells TC about drinking of the mind melding water & running for a night & day beating out the extravagances of thier hearts (to paraphrase). TC talks about her gaze verging on 'conflagration' when she nears the seventh ward & drinks the *heh heh* Earthblood. I think she acts out of desparation - brought on by the knowledge passed on thru the Ranyhyn - of Fouls betrayl and of the nature of her & the Land's impossible situation.

Either way, IMO, she breaks the OoP, which was supposed to be her foundation of life.

Is there a big difference between despair & revenge?

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Elena-when she was alive how much did Despite influence her?

Elena-when she was alive how much did Despite influence her?

elena was a freaky chick

elena in russian myth

TC: Manic/Depressive?