Cail and Jenn's chapter discussion
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Yeah really, nothing like a kid to ruin a perfectly good story. I call it Terminator 2 syndrome.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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I'm Murrin
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I'm sorry Cail, but, "decisive woman who saved the Land"? Yes, she healed the Land. But that doesn't make all her other faults drop away. When Covenant stopped Foul, Linden tried to possess him. She had only barely learnt enough to restrain herself from doing it. She wasn't decisive, unless her options were clear--like healing the Land when she was presented with the means.
(Y'know, off topic, but I always thought something didn't seem right about Linden healing Pitchwife at the end of WGW... it seemed to just fly right in the face of all the points that were made about he and Gossamer in those books. It felt like there was a misunderstanding of who they were and what they wanted. Maybe SRD didn't intend that, but it never sat right with me. Maybe it's just the bit where she didn't even ask permission. I mention it because it stands out to me as an indication of something Linden didn't get right, something she still needed to learn, though in this case I can't think what.
In the Second Chrons, Covenant felt like he had to be the saviour. The fact that he couldn't always be was the lesson faced. Linden is the one who just has to fix things--she has learned to be a healer for the right reasons, but she has not yet learned that sometimes, things can't or shouldn't be fixed. (I wonder if the Creator has learned that lesson?))
(Y'know, off topic, but I always thought something didn't seem right about Linden healing Pitchwife at the end of WGW... it seemed to just fly right in the face of all the points that were made about he and Gossamer in those books. It felt like there was a misunderstanding of who they were and what they wanted. Maybe SRD didn't intend that, but it never sat right with me. Maybe it's just the bit where she didn't even ask permission. I mention it because it stands out to me as an indication of something Linden didn't get right, something she still needed to learn, though in this case I can't think what.
In the Second Chrons, Covenant felt like he had to be the saviour. The fact that he couldn't always be was the lesson faced. Linden is the one who just has to fix things--she has learned to be a healer for the right reasons, but she has not yet learned that sometimes, things can't or shouldn't be fixed. (I wonder if the Creator has learned that lesson?))
This was before she knew Jeremiah was in any danger, wasn't it?Cail wrote:Linden's gut (and first) reaction isn't about Jeremiah's safety; it's about the Land's.
Not really. Roger is right in front of her making threats and demands. In fact, Jeremiah's name isn't even mentioned until page 21 (after she calls security to watch Joan), and then only in the context of him being lost if something were to happen to her.Murrin wrote:This was before she knew Jeremiah was in any danger, wasn't it?Cail wrote:Linden's gut (and first) reaction isn't about Jeremiah's safety; it's about the Land's.
It doesn't make her faults drop away, but again, look at the months she spent in the Land, the challenges she faced (and endured), and how she prevailed. Perhaps (OK, maybe definitely) I didn't choose my wording well. The woman saved the Land, and pulled several members of the Search's bacon out of the fire.Murrin wrote:I'm sorry Cail, but, "decisive woman who saved the Land"? Yes, she healed the Land. But that doesn't make all her other faults drop away. When Covenant stopped Foul, Linden tried to possess him. She had only barely learnt enough to restrain herself from doing it. She wasn't decisive, unless her options were clear--like healing the Land when she was presented with the means.
That's an excellent point. One that's going to bug the crap out of me. You should send that in to the GI.Murrin wrote:(Y'know, off topic, but I always thought something didn't seem right about Linden healing Pitchwife at the end of WGW... it seemed to just fly right in the face of all the points that were made about he and Gossamer in those books. It felt like there was a misunderstanding of who they were and what they wanted. Maybe SRD didn't intend that, but it never sat right with me. Maybe it's just the bit where she didn't even ask permission. I mention it because it stands out to me as an indication of something Linden didn't get right, something she still needed to learn, though in this case I can't think what.
Linden's motivation (so far) is identical to TC's. She's the Sun Sage and the WGW. She was the savior of the Land. The fact that she recognizes that 18 pages into the novel isn't a mistake.Murrin wrote:In the Second Chrons, Covenant felt like he had to be the saviour. The fact that he couldn't always be was the lesson faced. Linden is the one who just has to fix things--she has learned to be a healer for the right reasons, but she has not yet learned that sometimes, things can't or shouldn't be fixed. (I wonder if the Creator has learned that lesson?))
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
A good point... and we see that continuing in Runes. She heals Stave at least twice without his consent, which is a huge issue to his Haruchai pride. There are entire discussions about this very point. She also tries to heal Anele with hurtloam, and is fortunate that it didn't actually cause harm. And aren't there a few other instances like this? Maybe the Waynhim? I get the feeling that this is going to be an important plot point...Murrin wrote:(Y'know, off topic, but I always thought something didn't seem right about Linden healing Pitchwife at the end of WGW... it seemed to just fly right in the face of all the points that were made about he and Gossamer in those books. It felt like there was a misunderstanding of who they were and what they wanted. Maybe SRD didn't intend that, but it never sat right with me. Maybe it's just the bit where she didn't even ask permission. I mention it because it stands out to me as an indication of something Linden didn't get right, something she still needed to learn, though in this case I can't think what.
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Cameraman Jenn
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Cail, I promise to have some intelligent things to say after this weekend about Runes, in the meantime.....
ABOUT HEALING PITCHWIFE.....That bugged me too....ALOT...Part of the joy of his love for the First and her love for him was that physical deformity didn't MATTER....he was perfect the way he was...at least in the eyes of the First and himself and MY eyes....grrrr.....
ABOUT HEALING PITCHWIFE.....That bugged me too....ALOT...Part of the joy of his love for the First and her love for him was that physical deformity didn't MATTER....he was perfect the way he was...at least in the eyes of the First and himself and MY eyes....grrrr.....
Now if I could just find a way to wear live bees as jewelry all the time.....
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Actually, that conversation happens in this chapter.dlbpharmd wrote:Additionally, why on Earth wouldn't Linden move her son out of her house if she feels so threatened by Roger?Spoiler
At this point, Linden thinks that Roger doesn't know about Jeremiah. Megan Roman tells her later that Roger knows about him, and that's when Linden freaks out.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Even still, I don't think it ever crosses Linden's mind to move Jeremiah 'till it's too late.
Edit-Do we need to spoiler stuff in this forum?
No problem if we do, I just want to know what the etiquette is.
Edit-Do we need to spoiler stuff in this forum?
No problem if we do, I just want to know what the etiquette is.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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danlo
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...shouldn't need any spoilers at all, that's why we started this forum (unless that's what you're into 
). I can see Cail's point at the beginning about the structure and an initial reaction to a newer Linden. I was probably already mezmerised by his reading of Chapt 5 and so exicted that I gave SRD the benefit of a doubt (especially after 20 odd years...).
). I can see Cail's point at the beginning about the structure and an initial reaction to a newer Linden. I was probably already mezmerised by his reading of Chapt 5 and so exicted that I gave SRD the benefit of a doubt (especially after 20 odd years...).fall far and well Pilots!
To be honest, that's how I read it the first time. I just sort of devoured it without thinking critically about it. It really wasn't 'till June when y'all were in DC and we were sitting around the table talking about it that I realized I didn't think it was up to snuff.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Heh, you may be right. 
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Zarathustra
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Oh, you know the First was diggin' some nondeformed Pitchwife love.Cameraman Jenn wrote: ABOUT HEALING PITCHWIFE.....That bugged me too....ALOT...Part of the joy of his love for the First and her love for him was that physical deformity didn't MATTER....he was perfect the way he was...at least in the eyes of the First and himself and MY eyes....grrrr.....
But I agree, it does seem to cheapen the point Donaldson was making with those characters. And I think Murrin was astute to point it out, and Relayer blew me away by connecting it to Linden's actions in Runes (Stave, Anele, etc.). What happens when you're a healer and people don't want you to heal them? Perhaps it's just another play on the whole possession theme. But I like the new twist. Maybe Donaldson saw the very thing Murrin pointed out, and decided to turn it to his advantage for this Chronicles.
However, something about it still doesn't sit right with me. Even though two old people can love each other despite their aged bodies . . . would it really cheapen that love if they were both made young? That's like saying two beautiful young people can't really be in love the way two old smelly people can. I just don't buy that.
It doesn't cheapen their love. I think the point is made though that the First loved Pitchwife regardless of his deformities. In fact, the argument could be made that she loved the fact that his inner beauty outshone his disfigurements.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Zarathustra
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True. (Though his inner beauty isn't hidden by a normal body.) So you're saying you disagree with Murrin and Relayer that this is a problem?Cail wrote:It doesn't cheapen their love. I think the point is made though that the First loved Pitchwife regardless of his deformities. In fact, the argument could be made that she loved the fact that his inner beauty outshone his disfigurements.
No, it's not hidden by a normal body, I'd wager it doesn't shine quite so bright though.
No, I don't disagree with either of them. I hadn't realized how much of an issue this was (prolly because I have a hazy memory of Runes).
No, I don't disagree with either of them. I hadn't realized how much of an issue this was (prolly because I have a hazy memory of Runes).
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Thanks Malik. It hadn't occurred to me till I saw Murrin's post. I suppose we could take it further, too. Jeremiah? Joan? I see differences there... I mean, if I were unconscious and had burned my hand, I'd certainly want someone to help meMalik23 wrote:And I think Murrin was astute to point it out, and Relayer blew me away by connecting it to Linden's actions in Runes (Stave, Anele, etc.). What happens when you're a healer and people don't want you to heal them? Perhaps it's just another play on the whole possession theme. But I like the new twist. Maybe Donaldson saw the very thing Murrin pointed out, and decided to turn it to his advantage for this Chronicles.
... the Ramen injured in the battle w/ kresh welcomed healing ... and of course we should try to help people who are insane... but who knows how this plays out in the Land or SRD's "real world"? If there is any awareness within Joan or Jeremiah, would they want help? What do you do when you're the healer and someone doesn't want you to heal them? Great question. I'm also realizing, isn't the Creator himself "guilty" of this? Both TC and Linden were chosen w/out their consent or knowledge. The Creator admits this to at the end of TPTP.
I'm of the general opinion that it's their life and I have no right to interfere w/out their permission. In practice, it doesn't always happen that way. Few people in our world would refuse physical healing like Stave does, but we all know lots of people who might not want our help in emotional or psychological matters. Remember Covenant at the beginning of TWL? "If I'd wanted help I'd have posted a sign!" is a fairly clear statement. Whether or not Linden (or Berenford, or anyone trying to help) thinks someone needs help isn't necessarily the point.
Although "shouldn't you ring a bell or something" is a great comeback
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High Lord Tolkien
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Just a quick comment about Pitchwife, I always got the impression that he was really really realy hurt, weren't his lungs punctured or something?
I don't have the book handy today.
And the First loved him inspite of his condition not because of it.
Linden had to help him!
Linden straightening his spine was a pure thank you or a reward for the both the First and Pitchwife.
Come on people........
I can't believe you bastards are going to make me say this......
Ok....
[Deep breath]
Linden healing Pitchwife was one of the few things she did right!!!!
Arrghhhh!!!!
I don't have the book handy today.
And the First loved him inspite of his condition not because of it.
Linden had to help him!
Linden straightening his spine was a pure thank you or a reward for the both the First and Pitchwife.
Come on people........
I can't believe you bastards are going to make me say this......
Ok....
[Deep breath]
Linden healing Pitchwife was one of the few things she did right!!!!
Arrghhhh!!!!
Last edited by High Lord Tolkien on Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Zarathustra
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I want to agree. That's why I said something about this just doesn't sit right with me. I like the way you put it, "inspite of" rather than "because of."High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Linden healing Pitchwife was one of the few things she did right!!!!
However, I'm reminded of a GI question about "healing" broken Laws. Donaldson replied that it would cheapen what went before, render it pointless. The point of life isn't to undo harm, but to overcome it, and flourish in spite of it.
I'm conflicted on this issue. I rejoiced at Pitchwife's healing when it happened. To me, it was no different from healing the Land from Sunbane. Pitchwife wasn't supposed to be deformed.
So perhaps the contradiction lies in Donaldson's resistance to having broken Laws be "healed." After all, if he's willing to have the Sunbane-warped Land healed, then why not Laws themselves? If the point of life is to overcome harm, not undo it, then isn't this exactly what the people living under the Sunbane were doing?
Just throwing that out there for consideration . . .