Why doesn't anyone care about Pietten?

[danlo]

In Alsem's "most charismatic character" thread

If we can consider the Land a character that would be my vote. I don't know about "charismatic" but compelling would be Lord Foul & TC. Who would I give a hug to? Pitchwife...followed by Hamako (he was twice bereft for god's sake!), Mistweave, dukkha and Lord Hyrim.

then I thought, for some really odd reason: what about Pietten? Then I was going, "OK, what is wrong with you?, don't you have any compassion." And I'm still mad at myself for not givin' a "rats" about him. (This makes me a bad person, eh? ).

[Wyldewode]

then I thought, for some really odd reason: what about Pietten? Then I was going, "OK, what is wrong with you?, don't you have any compassion." And I'm still mad at myself for not givin' a "rats" about him. (This makes me a bad person, eh? ).

No, it doesn't make you a bad person. I've always found Pietten a hard character to like, even knowing what was done to him to make him the way he was. It's only natural in life to react against some people. . . the fact that you feel bad about it shows that you do feel compassion toward him. And just because we feel compassion for someone doesn't necessarily mean that we will like them. Personally, I have at times felt compassion for serial killers. . . escpecially ones who were horribly abused as children. Having compassion for them does not mean that I like them, or find their acts excusable, or condone in any way what they have chosen to do.

Perhaps you are confusing a lack of empathy for a lack of compassion. Compare the following:

compassion
1: a deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering [syn: compassionateness] 2: the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it [syn: pity]

empathy 
1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
2. the imaginative ascribing to an object, as a natural object or work of art, feelings or attitudes present in oneself: By means of empathy, a great painting becomes a mirror of the self.

Perhaps you find it difficult to empathetic with Pietten. Even immediately following the battle, Pietten was hardly human. Even I have a hard time being empathetic with him. Perhaps it is because the way he is written. . . SRD doesn't seem to show much humanity in him, much of anything to idenitfy with. *shrugs*

Certainly you are not the only one to feel this lack. . . or to wonder about that feeling. I remember after reading about him the first time (about age 12), and thinking that he was something horrible. . . just waiting for the right moment to strike.

Hope this made some sense.

~Lyr, rambler

[High Lord Tolkien]

I hated everything about Pietten.
I even hated his name!
I had no interest in the character at all.
Much like Linden is, he was just a minor character that highlighted the major ones.
A nessesary evil.

[matrixman]

I agree with Lyr's comments about Pietten. It's really difficult to care about him because it's like he's just this empty shell of a person. There's nothing in there to care about. Heck, I cared more about the ur-viles than about Pietten. Did SRD deliberately make him such a cold character or was Pietten just poorly written? I'm not sure.

[Nerdanel]

Well, I care about Pietten. Such a sad case... I think the creepy hollow shell feeling was deliberate. It makes one wonder what the ur-viles did to him. What violation could possibly cause something like that? And that's sad and disturbing.

[matrixman]

So...if you were walking in the park and saw Pietten sobbing on a bench, how would you feel? Would you go hug him?

Oops, wrong thread.

[Wyldewode]

Well, I care about Pietten. Such a sad case... I think the creepy hollow shell feeling was deliberate. It makes one wonder what the ur-viles did to him. What violation could possibly cause something like that? And that's sad and disturbing.

You know, I suspect that you may be on to something here. The English literature-explicator in me tends to want to see him as a metaphor. . . or foreshadowing of what Foul plans to do to the Land?

I freely admit that it's been years and years since I have read all of the books (am now finishing up PTP). I haven't even read Runes yet. As such, I don't feel qualified to comment on the character as a metaphor for Foul's plans in the land.

I will say, however, that Pietten was violated. . . as much raped as Lena, though in a different way. That theme repeats again and again through the series (inasmuch as I recall). What is SRD trying to tell us about violation and rapine? Does this ultimately go back to issues of identity, or something equally as deep?

Honestly, I don't know. This is one of the reasons I joined KW. . . to glean wisdom from those who have made some headway in divining the deeper themes inherent in the story. Sometimes I feel as though I don't have the greatest grasp on the meaning behind it all.

Okay. . . now I am really rambling!

~Lyr

[TIC TAC]

Pietten always represented a tragedy to me. When he was young his part in LF's plans wasn't at all clear outside of the fact that he had clearly had something vile done to him. As the child character I had plenty of sympathy for him. Something about "How could anyone harm a child?" pops into mind etc. Natural stuff. When we next meet him he's grown. We see the strange and sinister Ramen outcast he's become. It wasn't until his homicidal tendencies emerged that my feelings toward him suddenly moved from sympathy to out right revulsion. When he died there was a sense of relief. Not just that Covenant had escaped being killed himself but that Pietten's part in the story was finally concluded. I believe he was a very well written character that served a very specific purpose. I detect no failing on SRD's part in the character's creation or execution. IMHO of course.

[High Lord Tolkien]

He also ruined the Ramen for me.

The Ramen were total badasses in the best of ways.
But one man was able to expose all thier sanctuaries tothe enemy?
And the Ramen couldn't figure it out or stop him after the first time?
Come on!
Somehow all thier hideaways were being discovered, and there just so happens to be a creepy stranger staying with the Ramen......
I thought the whole concept was weak.

[matrixman]

That's a good point, HLT. I wanted to slap the Ramen for being so dense about Pietten.

Maybe they denied themselves the possibility that he could be the traitor because he was too invaluable to them as a carer of the Ranyhyn.

[A Gunslinger]

That's a good point, HLT. I wanted to slap the Ramen for being so dense about Pietten.

Maybe they denied themselves the possibility that he could be the traitor because he was too invaluable to them as a carer of the Ranyhyn.

The Ramen are so single minded that their devotion serves corruption. hence the blindness to Pietten. In that way, they are more like the

Spoiler

Masters

than they would freely admit.

[Relayer]

He also ruined the Ramen for me.

The Ramen were total badasses in the best of ways.
But one man was able to expose all thier sanctuaries tothe enemy?
And the Ramen couldn't figure it out or stop him after the first time?
Come on!
Somehow all thier hideaways were being discovered, and there just so happens to be a creepy stranger staying with the Ramen......
I thought the whole concept was weak.

I don't get it either. IIRC, this had something to do with their commitment to Covenant to take care of Pietten? They didn't like or trust him, but he was a top-notch Ranyhyn-tender. Did this blind them to his betrayals? They would have taken the Ranyhyn out of the Land much sooner if the horses also hadn't made a promise to TC. The Ramen keep their word, and don't impose themselves on the will of the Ranyhyn or the world around them...

Spoiler

... like the Masters do.

BTW, it just occured to me that Esmer is kind of like Pietten... they are both a mixture of doing helpful and harmful acts. Don't know what that implies...

[Sandgorgon rider]

He also ruined the Ramen for me.

The Ramen were total badasses in the best of ways.
But one man was able to expose all thier sanctuaries tothe enemy?
And the Ramen couldn't figure it out or stop him after the first time?
Come on!
Somehow all thier hideaways were being discovered, and there just so happens to be a creepy stranger staying with the Ramen......
I thought the whole concept was weak.

I don't get it either. IIRC, this had something to do with their commitment to Covenant to take care of Pietten? They didn't like or trust him, but he was a top-notch Ranyhyn-tender. Did this blind them to his betrayals? They would have taken the Ranyhyn out of the Land much sooner if the horses also hadn't made a promise to TC. The Ramen keep their word, and don't impose themselves on the will of the Ranyhyn or the world around them...

Spoiler

... like the Masters do.

BTW, it just occured to me that Esmer is kind of like Pietten... they are both a mixture of doing helpful and harmful acts. Don't know what that implies...

I think the Ramen couldn't imagine someone who was so devoted to the Ranyhyn would reveal their hiding places. I don't understand how Pietten himself couldn't see how his betrayal of the Ramen was leading directly to the destruction of the Ranyhyn he loved. Those Ur-viles must have really messed him up. Even if the Ramen did figure out the Pietten was betraying them I don't think they would have harmed him as they had promised the Lords and Covenant they would take care of him. But they could have kicked him out of the Plains of Ra or at least not revealed their hiding places to him.

[danlo]

The Ramen are so single minded that their devotion serves corruption.

Interesting, I've always felt the same way: like the Bloodguard no matter how "badass" a Land ethos is SRD exposes a human flaw in it.

Spoiler

Actually they talk about both flaws in Runes

. Maybe part of the problem is that we don't see Pietten working with the Ranyhyn all that much--but it's obvious they need good fighters with all that damm kresh around.

I can't defend him much further. He was a festering scab. I was very shocked with what happened to him as a child...very...but I got over it faster than I did Lena.

[dlbpharmd]

That's a good point, HLT. I wanted to slap the Ramen for being so dense about Pietten.

Maybe they denied themselves the possibility that he could be the traitor because he was too invaluable to them as a carer of the Ranyhyn.

The Ramen are so single minded that their devotion serves corruption. hence the blindness to Pietten. In that way, they are more like the

Spoiler

Masters

than they would freely admit.

Wow, strong words there. I think that's the first time I've ever seen any accusation leveled against the Ramen. I think Mhoram's and Bannor's examples are relevent: it's not the purity of service but the purity of the thing served which counts. The Ranyhyn are above corruption so I have to disagree that the Ramen are corrupted by their single minded service to them.

As to why the Ramen did not know that Pietten was betraying them, the point made about his love and devotion to the Ranyhyn and his skill at caring for the great horses is a valid point. We should also remember that the Ranyhyn did not reject Pietten as a servent of Fangthane either. If they had, the Ramen would have surely known who the traitor in their midst was.

[danlo]

Wow dlb this could stir up an intense debate! We posted at the same time so look at mine again.

We should also remember that the Ranyhyn did not reject Pietten as a servant of Fangthane either.

In that way Pietten is kind of like Covenant---"save or damm" that kind of thing--yet they reared to him (TC).

The Ranyhyn were in pretty bad shape in TPTP--and they probably don't have perfect judgement either...

[dlbpharmd]

Wow dlp this could stir up an intense debate! We posted at the same time so look at mine again.

We should also remember that the Ranyhyn did not reject Pietten as a servant of Fangthane either.

In that way Pietten is kind of like Covenant---"save or damm" that kind of thing--yet they reared to him (TC).

The Ranyhyn were in pretty bad shape in TPTP--and they probably don't have perfect judgement either...

I've been thinking about this some more and now I remember that the Ranyhyn took Llaura and Pietten at Covenant's request (order?) Which is why the horses didn't reject Pietten - they couldn't. Your point about the Ranyhyn's imperfect judgement is valid as well, since we know from ROTE

Spoiler

the horses were wrong about Elena.

[danlo]

[dlbpharmd]

BUT (still thinking about this) I still can't see how the Ramen are like the

Spoiler

Masters

(IOW serving Foul.)

[DukkhaWaynhim]

I don't remember the exact Covenant quote - "the way to hurt a man who has nothing left is to give him back something broken." That's what Foul does best, because it creates the mindset that the Creator names to Covenant (or was it Linden?) as 'the habit of despair' [he was referring to Kevin Landwaster].

To me, that twisting of intent / purpose is one of the central themes of TCTC. It also extends to what I believe is a huge recurring theme in *all* of Donaldson's works, the theme of flawed people and their struggle with/against redemption.

Pietten was taken and twisted at an early age by the Ur-Viles, so he cannot be blamed for his 'malady'. However, his adult actions carry too much purpose, too much volition for us to excuse him. I believe it was made clear that Pietten knew what he was doing, and loathed himself and others for it. That he was conscious of his acts and did them anyway made Foul's work complete - he was a tool of Despite, but seemed to be making his choices out of free will.

About the Ramen: they swore to keep Pietten as their own, which was an oath as absolute as the Ranyhyn's pledge to send one of their own to Lena each year - inviolable. The Ranyhyn's oath was killing them, because to meet that oath they had to expose themselves instead of hiding in the Southron ranges like the Ramen wanted them to do. Similarly, the Ramen's oath was lethal to them - by keeping Pietten they endangered their hiding places and the Ranyhyn themselves. All this death and despair, because TC extracted oaths from them - I'm sure Foul laughed the whole time.

The acts of imperfect people can create Hell on earth - and often these acts are undertaken with the best intentions. Covenant was trying to appease his guilt over Lena by giving her something special when he set in motion the decimation of the Ramen & Ranyhyn. This is what Foul likes to do - take our hopes, fears, guilt - our motivations - and turn them dark.

For me, what makes SRDs works so memorable and visceral is that he presents flawed people challenging their fates/predispositions, and we get to watch them digging themselves alternatingly out of and further into their own personal tortures. That's why black vs. white pulp fantasy no longer does it for me.

DW