Was the arch of time in danger of breaking in first chrons?

[Dirty Whirl]

Specifically in the final battle, when covenant destroyed the illearth stone. In that battle wild magic was raised so high that the entire promentory of fouls creche exploded and fell into the sea, so it was pretty powerful. In WGW when Covenants fighting the raver he cant beat him because if he raised the wild magic enough to match the power of the banefire he would break the arch of time- and the power of the illearth stone seems comparable to the banefire.

[drew]

Interesting.

Perhaps it was because most of the power was coming from the Illearth stone itself, which as not wild magic.

All through the First Chrons, Cov had to use some other form of magic (Illearth stone/Staff of Law) to really use the Wild magic.

But in the 2nd Chrons...all the power came directly from Covenant via the venom in his blood, thus making all the power he was weilding Wild Magic.

[Borillar]

I've posted about this before, but Findail has a quote in WGW that may explain it:

"By means of this venom the Despiser attempts the destruction of the Arch of Time, and that is no little thing. But it pales beside the fate which would befall the Earth and all life upon the Earth, were there no venom within you. You conceive yourself to be a figure of power, but in the scale of worlds you are not...Lacking the venom, you would be too small to threaten [the Despiser]...Therefore we bless the frustration or madness which inspired the gambit of this venom. Discontented in the prison of the Earth, the Despiser has risked his hope of freedom in the venom which gives you such might."

[Alsem]

Specifically in the final battle, when covenant destroyed the illearth stone. In that battle wild magic was raised so high that the entire promentory of fouls creche exploded and fell into the sea, so it was pretty powerful. In WGW when Covenants fighting the raver he cant beat him because if he raised the wild magic enough to match the power of the banefire he would break the arch of time- and the power of the illearth stone seems comparable to the banefire.

In the first Chron, the Staff of Law still existed, and that should be taken in balance, cause the staff which embodies the Law sustain also the Arch as wild magic do, if I'm not wrong

[dlbpharmd]

Specifically in the final battle, when covenant destroyed the illearth stone. In that battle wild magic was raised so high that the entire promentory of fouls creche exploded and fell into the sea, so it was pretty powerful. In WGW when Covenants fighting the raver he cant beat him because if he raised the wild magic enough to match the power of the banefire he would break the arch of time- and the power of the illearth stone seems comparable to the banefire.

In the first Chron, the Staff of Law still existed, and that should be taken in balance, cause the staff which embodies the Law sustain also the Arch as wild magic do, if I'm not wrong

Except that when Covenant destroyed the Illearth Stone, the Staff of Law had already been destroyed.

I agree with Borillar - Covenant was not capable of the kind of power needed to threaten the AoT without the venom.

[Fist and Faith]

If SRD didn't intend that, he'd have to explain why the Elohim didn't come running in the First Chrons.

[Nerdanel]

The only danger to the Arch was in Lord Foul getting the ring.

[Dirty Whirl]

Alright but say covenant didn't have the venom, but somehow triggered it off the abnefire or something, theoretically he could raise it high enough to rival the banefire, a level of power which would have broken the arch of time. Ditto with the worm. I thought the reason why the venom made covenant so dangerous to the arch was that it stripped him of the power of decision to choose his battles, and hold back from fighting them head to head.

[paradox]

You have to remember that covenant did not actually use the wild magic to defeat lord foul. In fact, I think that if he did try to slay foul using it, he would have endangered the arch of time.

With the venom, however, he was bereft of the ability to control the wild magic. The arch of time was not in danger of being destroyed because of the size of the flame that covenant would raise in fighting the banefire, it was in danger because wild magic which is the crux of the arch of time could not support the arch if it was fused with venom. remember that the arch is not even a physical thing.

The main danger during the 1st chronicles was not that Foul would have the ring, it was that covenant himself would turn his back on the Land. "save or damn"

The main danger during the 2nd chronicles was that the venom would fuse with the wild magic and corrupt the arch of time. This is why covenant had to burn the venom away with wild magic.

I guess covenant would have the ability to destroy the arch of time during the 1st chrons, however, covenant lacked the knowledge to focus his power on the arch of time, mainly because of his unbelief.

[paradox]

Fused with venom, the white gold would let the despiser escape the arch without the need to destroy it. Because of this, covenant was trapped between letting foul have the ring and destroying the arch, or letting the venom corrupt him and letting foul escape just the same.

But covenant realized that there is hope in the contradiction. He chose neither of the two options but rather sacrificed himself and purged the venom from the wild magic.

[Dirty Whirl]

My interpetation of the second chrons was that the arch of time wasn't in danger of being fused with venom until WGW when covenant fused the venom within himself. That was different to actaully fighting the banefire. Before that the arch of time was in danger from the size of the wild magic he wielded.
Heres a quote from WGW when hes fighting gibbon in revel stone:

"The banefire was not stronger than he was: it was simply stronger than he dared to be. Strong enough to withstand any assault which did not also crumble the arch of time."

Well, this means that the banefire was stronger than the illearth stone anyway, but thats to be expected as it was just earth power after all.

[Zarathustra]

This is a very good question. I think it illustrates that Donaldson didn't have the 2nd and 3rd Chronicles in mind when writing the 1st. There was no danger to the Arch because he invented that threat after the 1st Chronicles were written. The trouble we're spotting here verges on a continuity problem.

Borillar, your quote shows that the ring alone isn't sufficient to bring down the arch. It requires venom. So the Arch was not in danger in the 1st Chrons. However, in Runes, Linden says:

Lord Foul has my son, my Jeremiah. Maybe I can rescue him with wild magic, maybe I can't. But I can't do it without risking the Arch, and that's too dangerous. I need the Staff. Otherwise I might do enough harm to end the Earth."

Combined with Findail's words, this doesn't make sense. She has no venom in her. She's much better at using the wild magic than Covenant--she has more control. So where's the danger to the Arch in Runes?

Fist, good point about the absence of Elohim panic in the 1st. Again, more evidence that he wasn't thinking this large at the time.

The only danger to the Arch was in Lord Foul getting the ring.

I agree. The danger was that he would freely give Foul the ring (which, I believe, is symbolic of giving his passion and free will to his own personal despite--since LF is a symbol of TC's self-hatred). The venom was another version of this, giving up his control to the venom. Remember in TWL Linden describes venom as a "moral poison." It is more than just a power enhancer. It is also a rage or hatred enhancer. It brings out the "dark side" of Covenant's personality. The reason it threatens his control is the same reason that rage threatens one's control. Once you let out those kinds of powerful emotions, they are difficult to call back. But this is not very different from the wild magic. The whole reason it is wild is that it is the antithesis of control (law). Wild magic is passion, and venom just brings out the most destructive aspects of that.

The main danger during the 2nd chronicles was that the venom would fuse with the wild magic and corrupt the arch of time. This is why covenant had to burn the venom away with wild magic.

For this to be so, it would have been necessary for Foul to have planned all along for Covenant to join with the Arch. But this came as a surprise to Foul. It's how Foul was beaten. So that can't be the danger.

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but I didn't think the venom being fused with wild magic was a danger at all. In the Banefire, Covenant gained control over the venom by fusing it with wild magic. Covenant didn't rid himself of this dark side; he found a way to overcome it, to live with it, to control it. I don't look at venom as a corruption. It's not evil--just as rage and hatred aren't necessarily evil. They are natural parts of life. You can't be human without them. It is learning to live with them and control them that makes us strong.

My interpetation of the second chrons was that the arch of time wasn't in danger of being fused with venom until WGW when covenant fused the venom within himself.

I never thought of it this way, that his victory in the Banefire was actually what puts the Arch in danger. Refresh my memory: did Foul burn out the venom with the ring at the end? All I can find is one sentence:

"Fire fountained from his gaping hurt, spat gouts and plumes of numinous and incandescent deflagration, untainted by darkness or venom."

However, he seemed untainted by darkness or venom after fusing it in the Banefire, too. He even tells Linden: "I'm like an alloy-venom and wild magic and ordinary skin and bones melted together until they're all one. All the same. I'll never be free of it."

On second thought, you might be right. He also says that the Keystone of the Arch of time can't be based on venom, that it would be just like the Sunbane.

[paradox]

Refresh my memory: did Foul burn out the venom with the ring at the end?

yup, he did.. he explained to linden at the end that foul did the only thing he couldn;t have.. he burned the venom away... he also said that he was afraid foul would turn against the arch before he had a chance to burn covenant.. that's why he kept taunting him

[wayfriend]

"When he hit me with my own fire, he did me one thing I couldn't do for myself. He burned the venom away. After that, I was free."

In the end, Covenant was freed from the venom, and so therefore the Arch as well.

However, the relationship between Covenant and the Arch always existed. It is based on wild magic and white gold. All the Banefire did was seal that relationship closed - it didn't create that relationship. So, fundamentally, venom endangered the Arch of Time since the moment it was used.

I agree that Covenant was not as strong in the First Chronicles, and he did not endanger the Arch. Foul was comparably weaker as well. (For example, he was thwarted somewhat by a Staff-weilding Drool, and he required the Illearth Stone to be a true power.) Gibbon weilding the Banefire was probably stronger than Foul ever was in the first Chronicles.

As for the disparity between Linden's strength and Covenant's: Covenant by his very nature does not exert the full power of the ring. That is the very reason he was chosen in the First Chronicles - he is fundamentally distrusting of using power. Linden, like Foul, is not encumbered by any reluctance to weild power. Therefore Linden, like Foul, is naturally more able to weild the ring more strongly. The venom takes away Covenant's reluctance to use power, inhibitions based on inate moral principles - hence it is a "moral poison". It made Covenant stronger - as strong as Foul - because it removed all the moral roadblocks that prevented Covenant from being so strong.

[ScrapOSamadhi]

Hi All,

It has been a while and as Fatal Revenant gets closer I thought I'd check in.

There are several points/distinctions I think which need to be made to answer this question:

1. The Banefire was stronger than the Illearth Stone. The Sunbane which it interacted with (I am not necessarily saying powered by as the Sunbane would continue without it) was a corruption of the ground over the entire land which radiated and caused the sun to have its devestating corona. If the Illearth stone was that powerful Foul would have had enough power to do much more than he did after the Staff of Law was incinerated. In essence the Illearth Stones evil/power was more localized.

2. The REAL reason Covenant was a danger in the second chronicles and not the first was he lacked the health sense. In the first he would have known to pull back, had he enough power in the first place. In the second chronicles he only pulled back at the Isle of the One Tree because Linden clued him in about the worm. That is why the Elohim were so affraid the Ringwielder and Sunsage weren't the same person.

3. The venom was merely an enhancer, making what were powerful but not inherrantly dangerous outbursts of Wild Magic into potentially devestating ones.

Regards,
ScrapOSamadhi.

[paradox]

The REAL reason Covenant was a danger in the second chronicles and not the first was he lacked the health sense

i forgot that point...

In the first chrons, if the main objective of foul was to get his hands on the white ring, then why did he bother with the whole war thing? Is it just something "foul-ly"?

[ScrapOSamadhi]

I think one of his main objectives was to drive Covenant to despair. To force him to give up and willingly surrender the ring. Evidence can be seen of this by his tact when talking to Covenant on Kevin's watch in LFB and in PTP when he confronts him. In the Land and Lords Covenant had a great support network, even though he didn't want it.

[The Nose]

I always thought of Foul as having multiple reasons for the War in the first chronicles. First, he wanted to drive TC as close to despair as he could. Show TC the land and its people and then slowly destroy it in front of him.

Also, Foul hated his prison and the Creator. If he can't escape his prison, he will take great glee in wrecking the place. Until TC showed up, Foul spent his time tormenting the Land just out of spite. I don't remember the exact passage, but I vaguley remember someone commenting on this. It may have been Mhoram when he was discussing his belief in the Creator and the Creator's relationship with Foul in LFB.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

I agree that Covenant was not in danger of breaking the Arch in FC, other than if he had given the ring over to Foul. Foul himself was plenty powerful in FC, but he had to be more subtle, because the SoL was a hugely potent artifact - that Foul could not control directly without doing great harm to himself. It was the destruction of the SoL that allowed him to become more powerful and more obvious , and also enabled him to eventually create the Sunbane - a corruption of the Earthpower spawned when Foul essentially marinated himself in it to heal himself in the centuries after his defeat at TC's hand.
Foul was more openly powerful in the SC a) because he was no longer opposed by anyone in the Land, and b) because Covenant himself was more powerful because of his belief/passion fueling the wild magic. In SC, TC no longer had to be convinced that the Land was worth fighting for.

DW

[Penner Theologius Pott]

I agree with Borillar - Covenant was not capable of the kind of power needed to threaten the AoT without the venom.

I disagree. I think the problem was a bit more complex than that. He was *physically* capable of destroying the Arch, but not *emotionally* capable. After all, all the Illearth Stone was doing was providing a "trigger" for his power -- and I'm convinced that even that was a psychological necessity, created by Covenant. He could conjure the power on his own if he weren't so paralyzed by the idea of being that powerful.