How would resolving the Paradox change the story for you?

[iQuestor]

I have posted a lot on the Land's reality and my support of it. A Post a while back from WayFriend and some from Malik23 did get me to thinking about the paradox. I have come to the conclusion (that other drew before me and probably pointed out) that it is the paradox that is critical to the story and not its resolution.

I remember the first time I read the chrons, I was always searching for proof that the Land is real. Obviously, it never came. When Hile troy showed up, I said AH HA!! finally we are getting somewhere. Alas, TC wasnt able to track down Hile, and as I stated in another post, had TC found evidence of Hile in his own Real World, it wouldn't prove anything, because he has proof of linden as well in both worlds so why would it matter. Hile could be dream sharing just like Linden.

At any rate, I began thinking on how the books would have changed for me if the paradox of the Land's reality was resolved in the first chrons, meaning that we found out specifically that the Land was a real place that existed in some way, or that is was just a dream.

How would it change the experience of the chrons for you? Better? Worse? I am very interested to hear comments. I will give mine once I have thought them through.

edited for spelling.

[Zarathustra]

I definitely think it would be a detrimental change. Both in terms of the story and its goals, and in terms of my own personal philosophy.

The story hinges on accepting paradox as a part of life, finding the eye of the paradox. So for Donaldson to come down either way would be contrary to the meaning of the story--especially for the 1st Chronicles, if not so much in the latter books.

I think that the main point of this series is authenticity, acceptance of life the way it actually is rather than attempting futile, self-denying strategies to overcome the natural limits of this life. The inauthenticity of the Bloodguard's Vow is an example. So is the Oath of Peace. When we deny what makes us human, we inadvertantly leave ourselves vulnerable to Despite, becuase in a sense, these attempts are rooted in an aversion to what makes us human. The strict law of leprosy which Covenant follows at the beginning is kind of like his own personal Vow/Oath. He clamps down on his passions so that they don't drive him mad with hope and loss. This law of leprosy isolates him from other humans ("don't touch me!"), and is precisely the pathway through which Despite grows within him (of which Lord Foul is a symbol).

Personally, I think that life is paradoxical and absurd in many ways. We are conscious matter, mind/body paradox. We are beings for whom life is our most precious principle, and yet we are all slowly dying. We are intelligent creatures saddled with irrational emotions. We are beings of passion, yet we must exercise control.

The wish to resolve any of these paradoxes is an inability to accept ourselves as we truly are. And really, that is where all the "evil" comes from in the world.

[Relayer]

Malik, great post.

[Zarathustra]

Malik, great post.

Thanks! But really, it's just the same old crap I keep repeating. Glad you liked it.

[Reave the Unjust]

Malik, great post.

I concur...

It's what makes the Chrons what they are.

[balon!]

I think that paradoxes are things that can't really be numerified. (is that a word?) They only have power in the fact of their existance, so if the paradox WAS finalized int eh series, it would have lost all power for me.

[Nerdanel]

I don't believe in paradoxes. I think anything that looks like a paradox is that only because of our limited understanding. For example, it may seem contradictory that light can be a wave and a particle at the same time, but that's only because the deeper nature of matter is so profoundly alien to our macro-scale life. The paradox of Achilles and the turtle was only considered that because the Greeks hadn't grasped the fact that the sum of an infinite series can indeed be finite. And so on.

I think resolving the paradox can enhance the whole, but a lot depends on how it is done. I think there is evidence that the Land is more real than Covenant, but unfortunately I don't have my books with me at the moment...

[stonemaybe]

it may seem contradictory that light can be a wave and a particle at the same time

(Contradictory and very very annoying. see loresraat. )

[paradox]

That's what I loved about the chronicles... the fact that they made me realize that either way, reality does not matter, but our choices always do...

You see, I recently discovered that I have ADD. Here in the Philippines, people don't really know that there is such a disorder. My parents, specifically, thought that I couldn't do well in school because I was rebelling against their authority. Hence, low grades= evil.

I kept thinking that ending my life would be a perfect solution. I stop causing so much trouble and I end up doing something I want. Then the chronicles came to me and I realized that, indeed, it was not that easy.

I had to find the eye of the paradox. I had to tkae my life and find the success that my parents wanted for me and the happiness that I needed.

Now, I write freelance... and I smile because I am alive

[Zarathustra]

I don't believe in paradoxes. I think anything that looks like a paradox is that only because of our limited understanding. For example, it may seem contradictory that light can be a wave and a particle at the same time, but that's only because the deeper nature of matter is so profoundly alien to our macro-scale life. The paradox of Achilles and the turtle was only considered that because the Greeks hadn't grasped the fact that the sum of an infinite series can indeed be finite. And so on.

I think resolving the paradox can enhance the whole, but a lot depends on how it is done. I think there is evidence that the Land is more real than Covenant, but unfortunately I don't have my books with me at the moment...

If you're going to use the Achilles/tortoise "paradox" as an example, I can see why you don't believe in paradoxes. It's not really a paradox, and is easily disproven. Zeno presents the situation in a disingenuous fashion. The only reason Achilles can never catch the tortoise is ONLY if you look at increasingly smaller increments of time approaching the instant when he overtakes the tortoise. If you are going to frame the situation as such, of course Achilles can never reach it. It's like pausing a movie of such an event, taking a measurement of both their motions, and then waiting less and less time between pauses. It's the illusion of paradox.

On the other hand, the particle/wave dichotomy is a fundamental paradox in the nature of matter. ALL matter, all objects (including you and me) have this dualistic quality. The smaller the object, the easier it is to see its wave-like properties. This is a real, measured property of matter. Is there a "view" from which this paradox resolves? Maybe. But I believe such a view is not available in our current form of consciousness as singular beings. I believe the paradoxes connected to quantum mechanics are deeply tied to the fact that when we look at the universe, part of the universe is looking at itself.

There are also paradoxes of logic and set theory which cannot be resolved no matter how you view it--even if you were a god, it would make no difference. For instance, "This sentence is false." If true, it's false. But if false, it's true. That's a simple example. They get much more complex. The paradox comes about because sentences (like conscious beings) can be self-referential. There's something "magical" about the phenomenon of self-reference.


Sometimes paradox can be resolved at a higher level, but then you realize than an ever greater paradox is revealed by this "resolution." Philosophy of mind and phenomenology is starting to make this clear. I do not believe that the mind/body paradox will ever be resolved, even once you overcome the fallacies of Cartesian dualism. Ever since Descartes, philosophy has been struggling to resolve this paradox, only to reveal deeper mystery.

The paradox of self-consciousness (again self-reference) necessitates that the self can never be conscious of itself, because as soon as you direct your consciousness at your own consciousness (and thus make it an object of your attention), you instantly create a new state of consciousness which can also become an object of your attention. In other words, you can be conscious of yourself being conscious of your consciousness. The very fact that you can talk about being conscious of your consciousness necessitates that this reflective state is something we can consider in addition to consciousness itself. And then this can be an object of your consciousness, too. Which is a new layer within your consciousness--one that we can also be aware of. And so on. Like a dog forever chasing its tail, but never reaching it. The consciousness of which you are aware is never the same exact consciousness which is "doing the looking." Even when you make your consciousness an object of your awareness, there remains the part which is not an object, the part which is subjective. Paradox. And it's real, baby! Like staring into God's mirror, the Magic Mirror of Being.

[Nerdanel]

On the other hand, the particle/wave dichotomy is a fundamental paradox in the nature of matter. ALL matter, all objects (including you and me) have this dualistic quality. The smaller the object, the easier it is to see its wave-like properties. This is a real, measured property of matter. Is there a "view" from which this paradox resolves? Maybe. But I believe such a view is not available in our current form of consciousness as singular beings. I believe the paradoxes connected to quantum mechanics are deeply tied to the fact that when we look at the universe, part of the universe is looking at itself.

I think the particle/wave dichotomy is a dichotomy only because we are unable to fathom the real structure of matter and have to rely on inaccurate although useful conceptual models. I don't think we have a paradox there, only a thing that's hard to wrap your brain around.

Sometimes paradox can be resolved at a higher level, but then you realize than an ever greater paradox is revealed by this "resolution." Philosophy of mind and phenomenology is starting to make this clear. I do not believe that the mind/body paradox will ever be resolved, even once you overcome the fallacies of Cartesian dualism. Ever since Descartes, philosophy has been struggling to resolve this paradox, only to reveal deeper mystery.

The paradox of self-consciousness (again self-reference) necessitates that the self can never be conscious of itself, because as soon as you direct your consciousness at your own consciousness (and thus make it an object of your attention), you instantly create a new state of consciousness which can also become an object of your attention. In other words, you can be conscious of yourself being conscious of your consciousness. The very fact that you can talk about being conscious of your consciousness necessitates that this reflective state is something we can consider in addition to consciousness itself. And then this can be an object of your consciousness, too. Which is a new layer within your consciousness--one that we can also be aware of. And so on. Like a dog forever chasing its tail, but never reaching it. The consciousness of which you are aware is never the same exact consciousness which is "doing the looking." Even when you make your consciousness an object of your awareness, there remains the part which is not an object, the part which is subjective. Paradox. And it's real, baby! Like staring into God's mirror, the Magic Mirror of Being.

I fail to see the paradox here. I think this could more properly be called the self-consciousness curiosity rather than paradox. Why do you think self-consciousness requires being conscious of the perceiving mental program? I don't think it does. I think "self" is a wide concept that contains everything from id to superego, your entire neural wiring essentially, and so self-consciousness in fact perceives a good bit of itself, with the significant exceptions of the perceiving mental program and the (much larger) unconscious area. But well, if you don't define "self" that way, the only effect it has is that "self-consciousness" is suddenly a very inaccurate term.

I think mind is to the brain as programs (hardwired or not) are to a computer. I think we will eventually have true AI, as I don't see anything special in the biological substrate to make that required for intelligence. In fact, I think you could theoretically (it would be very slow and inefficient) make a huge computer simulation of Conway's Game of Life and implement a true AI using the cells in the game, as the Game of Life has been proven to be Turing-complete.

[Relayer]

Malik, great post.

Thanks! But really, it's just the same old crap I keep repeating. Glad you liked it.

Well, it's good crap. So keep saying it

Seriously, as many have said that's what makes the Chronicles (and the Watch) so great. There are so many deeper levels of philosophical / spiritual interpretation, and we each bring our own beliefs to the table.

(I'm not even gonna try to jump in to the discussion on self-consciousness. But you both make excellent and compelling points...)

I kept thinking that ending my life would be a perfect solution. I stop causing so much trouble and I end up doing something I want. Then the chronicles came to me and I realized that, indeed, it was not that easy.

I had to find the eye of the paradox. I had to tkae my life and find the success that my parents wanted for me and the happiness that I needed.

Now, I write freelance... and I smile because I am alive

Wow. And I thought these stories made a difference in my life. Finding a way to overcome an entire cultural paradigm and become successful, yet being authentic to who you are at the same time... Paradox, I salute you! (and what an appropriate username for this discussion! )

[The Dark Overlord]

Firstly, I'm glad you found a resolution to your problem, Paradox, giving up, ending your life because of difficult situations is never right. It is a gift and there is always a viable solution- even if it is just maintaining your dignity in extemely hard situations.
Secondly, I agree with Nerdanel that most ( if not ALL) paradoxes are only apparent and would be resolved if the true nature/ facts of the situation were known( I don't believe true ai will ever be achieved though-you need consciousness or self awareness for that and THAT cannot be progammed.)
Thirdly, as for the debate still going on about whether the Land is real or not- WHAT ABOUT IN THE BEGINNING OF THE WOUNDED LAND WHEN LORD FOUL POSSED JOAN( AND THAT FAMILY) IN THE REAL WORLD? WHAT ABOUT HIM MAKING AN APPEARRANCE IN THE BONFIRE IN FRONT OF EVERYONE, IN THE REAL WORLD??? We can also mention his influece over Joan and Roger( and his appearance in the lightning) in the real world at the beginning of THE RUNES. I will listen to anybody's thoughts on the matter but I don't see how it can posibbly be resolved( as far as the problem of being able to retain the paradox or even the possiblity that the Land isn't real). I thought the Old Beggar's existence and Covenant's almost impossible recovery at the end of thr First Chonicles made it FAIRLY clear that the Land was real and the beginning of THE WOUNDED LAND clinched it. I would like to hear any viable, feasible rationale for maintaining the paradox at this point in light of the facts I just referenced. Any expaination at all. Ciao, TDO

[Zarathustra]

Overlord, your points have been addressed already, and that topic is continuing in the thread about the reality of the Land. I guess your main point here is that the paradox HAS been resolved (in favor of the Land being real). However, objections can be raised against the reasons you mention. The issue has certainly never been resolved, and Donaldson himself has recently objected to such interpretations on the Gradual Interview.

Nerdanel, you don't think it's a paradox that self-consciousness necessarily precludes the possibility that it can be directed at itself? I'm not talking about sub-consciousness or anything murky beneath the surface. I'm talking about the most explicit form of self-consciousness you can imagine. The act of reaching for your own consciousness necessarily pushes it beyond your reach. And yet, somehow, we're still conscious of ourselves. It doesn't get any more paradoxical than that!

As for the particle/wave duality, until you can solve it, it's still a paradox. Your belief that it's not isn't an evidence-based belief. In fact, the evidence contradicts your belief. So I'm curious, what's it based on?

It is related to Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle--another paradoxical feature of matter. Characteristics, like position and velocity, are mysteriously linked in such a way that the more accurately you know one, the less accurately you can know the other. It's not a limit of our measuring capabilities--not a practical limitation. It's a limitation of principle, a fundamental roadblock that our knowledge will never be able to pierce. You can know either value to infinite precision, but you can NEVER know both together at the same time except as an approximation.

Perhaps this paradox will be resolved, but if that's so, we'll have to reevaluate the nature of matter so fundamentally, that quantum mechanic itself will be shown to be false. (And QM is the most experimentally verified theory in the history of science.) 100 years of extremely detailed experimental evidence amassed by the smartest men in history argue against your belief. But maybe they're wrong and you're right. I just think this belief arises from a superficial understanding of quantum mechanics. I recommend Quantum Reality, by Nick Herbert as a good place to start.

[iQuestor]

QM is paradoxical in my mind, but agree it has been rigorously tested. we just are not equipped to understand the underlying architecture to see it clearly. I think Nerdanel made a valid point, that paradoxes are an indication we do not truly understand the thing we are dealing with, rather than a curiosity of nature.

As far as TC, there is no definitive proof of the pardox. I would love to prove that the Land is real, based on evidence from the text, but it is a moot point. Neither side can be proven. I agree with the reasons TDO gives, I have made similar arguments: how can 2 or more people have the same dream?? but alas, the arguments against the lands reality cannot be ignored.

It is easy to forget the creator of this world (SRD) wanted the resolution to this seeming paradox to be ambiguous; there is no better resolution than his text, so the paradox of the Land's reality cannot be resolved.

[The Dark Overlord]

Um, ok, I suppose SOME of the things I mentioned could be explained (but I still think it would be reaching); however, I WOULD like to know what the explanations for the leggo contruction of Avery's son; that Lord Foul possessed Joan (and the family), and ESPECIALLY the appearance of Foul in the bonfire. The narrative clearly and unequivocally states that Foul WAS present in the bonfire- not appeared to be. He was existent in the bonfire- he existed- in other words he was real. What IS the explanation for THAT? If there is one, I'll look at it. TDO

[The Dark Overlord]

Ok, I Have a dumb question- you know were it has your tag/name and underneath its has your "occupation". Relayer has Elohim and iQuestor has Giantfriend- how can I puy my own in? I searched for that option and couldn't find it anywhere- thanks.

[paradox]

how can I puy my own in?

I think it has something to do with the number of posts you make... I used to be a servant too... but now Im a stonedownor.. I think some have reached a level when they can put in any rank they want to...

As for the paradox being solved... I believe that in order for the paradox and the story to actually exist, it should not be solved. Because once you solve the paradox, then it ceases being a paradox, right?

Thank you for the support guys...

[CovenantJr]

In your Profile, immediately under 'Username' it should say 'Custom Rank'. If it doesn't for you, then you probably have to reach a certain number of posts before having a custom rank.

[Warmark]

In your Profile, immediately under 'Username' it should say 'Custom Rank'. If it doesn't for you, then you probably have to reach a certain number of posts before having a custom rank.

Yea i think it might be 50?
I remember someone else asked and i didnt know te exact number then either.