Elena-when she was alive how much did Despite influence her?

[Guest]

no question that the council knew, the question is how did they find out?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/

[Skyweir]

I cant recall exactly .. I am sure we will get to it as we continue our dissection of the Land on the other forum .. but I remember TC confiding the knowledge of his rape of Lena to Mhoram .. and if not .. Atiaran knew .. hence Trell was going to find out .. and I cant imagine him not taking that knowledge to the Council ..

I truly cannot remember .. but a lot of people became sufficiently aware of the rape .. the news had to travel one would assume ..

that is .. if .. TC himself didnt confide his sin to the Lords himself ..

I remember him being very guarded about the rape .. as you would expect a man who has just committed a grievous act ..

I agree Aliantha .. who could have forseen what ultimately transpired - that TC 'would haul off and rape Lena'?

I dont say LF isnt evil .. but like Satan of judeo-christian tradition .. although he too is evil .. and does influence the minds of us all .. it is us alone that succumb/accept that influence ..

when I speed through the cusp of an orange light .. it is nothing more than a cop-out .. to suggest .. 'Satan made me do it' .. or in TC's situation LF made me do it! I dont believe LF can overcome the free will of any of the Lands inhabitants or TC ..

If he could .. why bother with armies and battles .. he could just subject us all to his will ..

The ravers .. now they kinda can .. via possession.

[aliantha]

Are they called orange lights at the South Pole, then? We call 'em yellow lights here in the States. (As in, "red means stop, green means go, and yellow means get the he** out of the intersection"....) Interesting! Are they orange in the UK, too, or just in the Southern Hemisphere?

<aliantha now returns you to our regularly scheduled thread topic>

[Guest]

does she make a SINGLE GOOD DECISION??? EVEN ONE??????
she allows the warword to get slaughtered while she goes off on a wild goose chase. The Land really needed the staff of law in those battles!!! Maybe Verement needn't have died, or Callindrill forever lose his confidence if she had BEEN WHERE HER DUTY DICTATED!!!
And not telling the other Lords about the seventh ward was just plain dumb.
And we won't even discuss wanting to bang her own dad.

[CovenantJr]

I think it was quite important that Elena left the Warward. It's true that, from the point of view of a Land-dweller, it was an immensely misguided act. However, I seem to recall Elena saying something about needing to at least find out. But one of the most important parts of her little side-quest was that it got TC away from the battle - he is almost defenceless, so he would hae been in significant danger had he remained with the Warward. Also, both Mhoram and Elena said she wanted to be with TC away from the battle, so that if he turned against the Lords and the Land, she would be able to try and stop him, without endangering the Warward.

[Lord Mhoram]

I think the Guest is right, she almost literally didnt DO anything! Her leaving the Warward MAY have been acceptable in my eyes if she had accomplsihed something away from it, but she didnt. Oh wait, she broke the Law of Death. Never mind, But, the LoD being broken was important under future circumstances...

[Guest]

Wasn't the whole reason TC was called to the Land so he could help in the battle? So, of course, High Lord Elena, takes him away on a wild goose chase and breaks the law of death and loses the staff of law and allows herself to become Elena Foulwife. What a dummy she was!

[duchess of malfi]

Well, put that way, the woman DID make some questionable decisions. Lord Mhoram, there's a good version of the firebird myth in a book called Essential Russian Mythology by Pyotr Simonov. The story is called Prince Ivan, the Firebird, and the Gray Wolf. Mercedes Lackey also wrote a novelzation of the myth called The Firebird, which is probably easier to find, but I prefer the more original form. If you do go with the Lackey version, be aware that the princess is silly and spoiled and shallow, which she is not in the original myth. In Simonov's version Elena becomes a betrayor because of a knife held to her throat. There is also a version where she becomes a betrayor through dark magic...

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I've always been of the opinion that the rape was primarily, if not completely, on Cov. and all the consequences were on him. Therefore Elena would be riding the same boat. However Duchess made this point:

Donaldson's Elena betrays the Land, but I don't think that she herself is an evil person. I think that Foul has been working on her most of her life. Doesn't he say right in the message to the Lords that he will hold the power of life and death in his hand before 42 years go by? This is a clear reference to Elena and the very, very, very bad thing that she comes to do when she calls Kevin from his grave. Foul somehow knows (and plans, I think) about what is going to happen.

While Lena's rape and Elena's stupid decisions could have only been one version of Foul's plans, it seems mighty likely that it was all in the cards from before Cov's summoning...